This episode features an interview with David Duenas, Life Science Practice Leader at HUB International. HUB International is a leading full-service global insurance broker providing property and casualty, life and health, employee benefits, investment and risk management products and services. David has served the company for nearly 20 years in Consulting and the Life Sciences Practice space. In this episode, Sasha and David discuss how to move to a self-funded solution, crafting a better member experience, and the value of human connection.
This episode features an interview with David Duenas, Life Science Practice Leader at HUB International. HUB International is a leading full-service global insurance broker providing property and casualty, life and health, employee benefits, investment and risk management products and services. David has served the company for nearly 20 years in Consulting and the Life Sciences Practice space.
In this episode, Sasha and David discuss how to move to a self-funded solution, crafting a better member experience, and the value of human connection.
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“I think the biggest challenge that we face is the complexity of the healthcare system. And that's everyone in that, in the delivery of that benefit. Whether it's at the carrier level, the consulting level, the providers, the hospitals, and getting all of that to integrate and speak to one another for the benefit of the employee. That, I think, is really the biggest challenge. Our industry is probably one of the few that takes all of its complexity, all of those connection points – and they are many – and we just drop this on the lap of the employee or the participant, if you will, and we just hit them on the rear end and say, ‘Good luck.’ And the fluency of most employees is they don't interact with the health plan with any commonality. They're just not there on a daily basis, so it's foreign to them. And so, we could try and increase their fluency but also the delivery, so it makes it easier for them.”– David Duenas
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Episode Timestamps:
*(00:54): David’s answer to “Why do you do what you do?”
*(02:06): Challenges members are facing in the healthcare industry
*(04:06): Components of a best-in-class program
*(06:17): The directive David sees from the carrier industry
*(09:46): How David talks to clients about moving to a self-funded solution
*(16:31): How the hospital experience trickles down to employers
*(23:45): David shares a story from the early days of his career
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Links:
Connect with David on LinkedIn
Connect with Sasha on LinkedIn
Learn more about Collective Health
Sasha: Let's face it. Healthcare is confusing and costs are continuing to rise. Employers are looking for ways to improve the health of their people and their bottom lines. The good news, many leading companies are leveraging self-funded health plans and innovative benefit solutions to do just that. Learn from some of the best minds in employee health.
Sasha: Welcome to the Benefits Playbook, strategies for Self-Funded Health Plans. I'm your host, Sasha Yamaguchi. Commercial leader at Collective Health. On today's episode, we are joined by Dave Duenas, Life Science Practice Leader at Hub International. Thank you so much, Dave, for being here with me today. I am super excited to have you on the podcast.
Dave Duenas: Well, thank you, Sasha. Let's see how you feel at the end of this.
Sasha: It's gonna be great. So one thing I would love to start with you and I saw each other recently and we were just talking about why we're in the industry, what we do. I would love for you to share with everyone when you get asked, why do you do what you do?
Sasha: How do you handle that question? How do you react?
Dave Duenas: Usually my first response, depending on the person I'm speaking to and their ability to take that little tongue in cheek as I say that I save lives and it is tongue in cheek. But you know, when you take a look at what we do in terms of providing benefits to employers that obviously go down to the employees and their dependents and their loved ones, the critical care that they need, and the ability to have this coverage.
Dave Duenas: In some ways it is life savings. It's what I also tell to, you know, our team members or even. I had a, uh, coffee talk with some of our newer employees, and you know, I do said that, you know, what you do is very noble even though they, you know, we get beat up in this industry quite a bit. But that's my wise, my wisecrack response. Typically.
Sasha: And to that point, I mean, members face challenges every day in healthcare. What would you say when you think of the members we all serve, or we do our jobs to get down to serving the member? What are the challenges that actual healthcare members are facing today?
Dave Duenas: I think the biggest challenge that we face is the complexity of the healthcare system, and that's everyone in that, in the delivery of that benefit, whether it's at the carrier level, the consulting level, the providers, the hospitals, and getting all of that to integrate and speak to one another for the benefit of the employee.
Dave Duenas: That I think is. It is really the biggest challenge. Our industry is probably one of the few that takes all of its complexity, all of those connection points, and they are many. And we just drop this on the lap of the employee and or the participant, if you will, and we just like hit 'em on the rear end and say Good luck.
Dave Duenas: And the fluency of most employees is they don't interact with the health plan with any commonality. Like they're just not there on a daily basis. So it's foreign to them. And so we would try and increase their fluency, but also the delivery, so it makes it easier for them. You know, we have apps that have very elegant interfaces with them, and you just go, oh my God, that was so easy.
Dave Duenas: That's not what we hear in our industry.
Sasha: I would agree. Just making it easy so they know how to access, get questions answered, all of that. I think we all joke, those of us that work in the industry joke, we know it and we even, there are times that we're confused by a statement we get or a bill or where to go, you know, and which provider, which specialists.
Sasha: So can only imagine those that, that don't even work in our industry, how hard it is for them to navigate. So to that point, maybe share with everyone in your position, you're working with employers, you're working with benefits leaders, right? So maybe share a little bit about that process. But as you're doing that and you're trying to build a program for their population, what would you say are the main components of that that you're helping that employer with to build out a great program for their participants?
Dave Duenas: Yeah. I think it really just depends on, each company has its own characteristics and strategic objectives, right? And like, you know, one of the first questions we ask, and usually when we go into a meeting, we don't bring anything I. 'cause this is like a download. Like I'm not an architect. I'm gonna go, Hey, look at this great Mediterranean house.
Dave Duenas: And I don't even understand that they really want a Cape Cod style. So the first thing I do is we just walk in with a blank piece of paper, understand their experiences that abrupt them to this point and where they wanna be strategically and where benefits falls in their total rewards equation from a base and bonus and long-term incentive plans.
Dave Duenas: And then along with the benefits. And because they primarily focus on the life sciences industry, what's unique about it is that the fifth lever, if you will, in their total reward strategy is what they're doing, and that's clearly shown in the morbidity rates. When we look at the kind of claims that we have on the disability side of the equation, people want to get back and help what they're doing, and that's what's fantastic about working with this vertical.
Dave Duenas: As benefit consultants, we sit at that inflection point between the creators, the innovators, and the payers. And part of our job is not just to help them optimize their spend and their design in this important component of their total reward strategy. But whenever possible to link up the payor with the creator because you know, if it's an emerging technology, it's typically experimental and investigational.
Dave Duenas: And how can we move? Because our, our industry, they have a tendency to move glacially. Relative to that innovation because they're out on two year roadmaps, right? And based on the objectives of what they're trying to solve for. And then everyone else is just like that little dog trying to yap and get your attention and get a little kibble.
Dave Duenas: So that's what we try and do is really facilitate that connection.
Sasha: To those lines, you know, you were hitting on the carrier model for a minute, especially the traditional side. What are you seeing just in the industry right now from either the traditional A s o fully insured carriers versus the T P A model?
Sasha: What's the directive coming out from that side of our industry and what are you
Dave Duenas: seeing? In terms of a directive, I don't really look at it in that way. You know, our job is to put the known alternatives in front of our clients, especially those that we believe they're gonna solve for their particular strategic need.
Dave Duenas: And you know, sometimes they bring baggage into it. They might've been in an unbundled scenario before and maybe had the wrong pieces, but just the thought of that, just like going back to another unbundled scenario, they've got a little scar tissue from that. So, you know, they're more likely to look at a bundled solution from that standpoint and vice versa.
Dave Duenas: But that's our job, is to really put those known alternatives out there and put all of the proposals that meet the objectives and to put those in, optimize them, because there's so few quality players left out there that I can't pick a favorite child. Right, because then you haven't really represented the best interests of your clients.
Dave Duenas: Give them the best known alternatives. Talk about the advantages and disadvantages of each, and then also, you know, again, optimally to have a live meeting. I think when you put people in front and they can look you in the eye and then bring their value proposition to life in a very personal way, I think it's really the best way to make a decision.
Sasha: Are you seeing. Reasonable renewals coming out this year, how do you think that's affecting your client base? Yeah,
Dave Duenas: I think if you had anyone from any consulting house here, they would probably say this is probably as challenging an environment, and there are reasons for it, right? You know, when we take a look at the provider systems and if, depending on who's study you read from Bloomberg up to some other well thought out survey, a lot of hospital delivery systems are running in the red.
Dave Duenas: And they need to make that up. So we are seeing probably our most challenging and probably what is most noteworthy, especially here in California, is the position of Kaiser and them exceeding their max renewal to 25 and actually hitting it on several notes. And I think that last year they lost. In 2022, they lost 4.5 billion, but this year they're already up close to 4 billion through the first two quarters.
Dave Duenas: So when you start passing on these renewals and start to see this type of performance financially, It's a challenge and I think, you know, when your clients look at that, and I'm sure Kaiser's not unique in this situation, when you see the carrier model and what they need to perform and then they record their record profits, it leaves a sour taste in the mouth.
Dave Duenas: I. And it's like, okay, how can we be more efficient from an employer? And that brings up probably the most efficient model is self-insuring, but it also comes with it certain risks that depending on size of employer, may not be attractive from that risk standpoint. I. So
Sasha: I was gonna ask you next, I think self-funding is talked about more than ever, especially here on the West Coast.
Sasha: So you're leading right into the next thought I had in question for you is with what's happening with renewals and the industry, are you seeing more clients considering moving to the self-funded arrangement? And maybe it's not this year, but when you're talking to your clients, when do you feel it's the right time?
Sasha: Because I do think we have a lot of employers, hopefully even listening today, that are considering that jump. But they're scared or there's brokers and consultants that wanna show that option, but you have clients that aren't ready. So do you feel we're starting to see an uptick in self-funding and and what do you talk to your clients about the right time for that transition?
Dave Duenas: Enormously because what has filled that gap in that sub 1000 employer and size in itself is not an absolute determinant whether or not you should self-insure. There are many factors that go into that, and it's also the risk profile of finance and HR that you need to also consider from that standpoint.
Dave Duenas: But what's the alternative By. Double digit rate increases and just do this whole dance again. It's like, okay, if we commit to this strategy every two years, you know, once you're a new business, discount runs out and they try and recapture that, we're gonna be back in this same place. You get this silly dance that we have to do.
Dave Duenas: People are like, just get me off of this. Right? One of a very impactful HR leader at Leman, at Illumina, when I worked with her for like over six years, and that was a client of mine for 11 years. I remember she came up to me and said, you know, I'm so sick and tired of spending what we spend on benefits and employees just hate our plant.
Dave Duenas: And you know, all we're doing is exchanging jailers when we go from one to another. And then finally we made that jump to self-insuring. Sure, they could have made it earlier, but everyone has their own time. And then finally the time came for them and there's good people at all. The carriers really.
Dave Duenas: Thoughtful, caring people that also have to juggle what they face internally in terms of targets that they have to reach and profitability and all those things. I think you take a lot of that measurement out when you self-insure. 'cause the. You just have to be able to go, how do we handle the risk? And that's where everyone goes.
Dave Duenas: In the absence of fact, the mind goes to the worst place I can schedule for a guaranteed cost. I can't schedule for an unknown cost. But I think that going back to the earlier part of how I, you know, started this diatribe, is that. In the sub 1000 marketplace, I think captives have really created an area where they can spread amongst a larger pool of employers that that risk from a stop-loss perspective.
Dave Duenas: And I think that has opened up the self-insurance side and I was talking with an employer and they're about 600 lives, 'cause San Diego doesn't have that many large employers. And I said outside of California, There's a pretty good chance you'd be self-insured, but because of capitation, I think we're an island from that standpoint with probably far more fully insured in that segment.
Dave Duenas: But really it's the old adage, once you are fully experienced underwritten, you are self-insured. They just have the advantage of your money for a whole year. So you're just a year in arrears. So I think to look at it that way. And then what are the risk mitigation factors that we can employ to make sure that your company just doesn't get sideswiped?
Sasha: I actually would love for you to add to that, for those listening that aren't super familiar with self-funded, that risk, what do you put in place for your groups to handle that piece of the transition
Dave Duenas: at the larger end? The market, when you're just self-insured and you're out there on your own and you're large enough that you are your own risk model, the appropriate stop loss contract and, and by design, you know, making sure that.
Dave Duenas: You're putting in a 24 12 to capture any run-in that may hit the plan. And having been doing this a long time, you know, I've been around to see where hospitals do an audit and they come back and go, oh. We underbid you. You never get the letter that says, oh my God, we owe you money. It's always the other way around.
Dave Duenas: So, you know, and these are basic designs. They're not unique to us from that standpoint, but just making sure that you're thoughtful and really stress testing, finance, especially finance to go, can you write a check? This is the most efficient model, and if you look at it in a five-year tranche, you'll probably win this game three to two.
Dave Duenas: But in two of those five years, how most underwriters look at it is that you're gonna lose, you know, you have to have a more thoughtful, long-term approach as you go into this. And this is, self-insuring in itself is not a strategy, it's just a tactic. So that's typically how we look at it. And then again, in the under 1000 where risks can be, you have to be more thoughtful about risk.
Dave Duenas: I think that's where being able to spread some of that stop-loss concern and lasering, if you will, that you can put a cap on the stop-loss renewal. And also, you know, no new lasers. Going in, I think you have a really good opportunity to really look at what might be beneficial and really control, and now get the data right.
Dave Duenas: But the carriers relative to data is that you don't get the data till May of the following year. Where it's age, you can't really do anything about it. Unlike a collective health that could give you data daily if you wanted to from that perspective. 'cause you can't manage what you can't see and in certain sizes, like 500 and below because you're.
Dave Duenas: You're either bifurcated or trifurcated from the plans you offer. You know, you may not get much data, useful data at all, and you know, you can't manage what you can't see. And then you get the renewal and they go, well, you're not running well, well show me. And they go, yeah, I, I can't. And I think it's a little bit like gonna Las Vegas and like the dealer or the 21 dealer just goes, yeah, you lost.
Dave Duenas: And we go, well you haven't shown your cards. They go, yeah, well you lost. The rules of the game are written for the carriers, but they're an important part of this, this equation. I'm not beating them up completely. I've gotta work with them on certain cases. 'cause some clients just like no risk. And I go, okay, but these increases have a risk of their own.
Sasha: Y. No, and I love that you're hitting on data because I feel like that's the biggest piece of these groups moving to self-funded, regardless of size. I love that you made that point a minute ago because these groups are now able to see exactly how their plan's running, and that's huge, right? So. I think it's, it's a great benefit of that transition.
Sasha: I think you mentioned a hospital bill coming back outta curiosity, I know you're super close to the different parts of our industry. How are the hospitals doing right? And how does that trickle down to your employers members? How's it affecting our industry as a whole?
Dave Duenas: Yeah, so I mean, I'll speak about California specifically and I, I'm fortunate to have a close relationship with the Chief medical officer at Scripps.
Dave Duenas: So here in San Diego we have an oligopoly. The two major systems here are Scripps and Sharp. I. A little bit of U C S D, and then obviously Kaiser has its staff model as well, but from a non-key model, sharpened scripts are the dominant players down here, you know, was having lunch with Anil and he was talking about in early June the California law was passed that the minimum hourly wage for healthcare workers is now gonna be $25, starting by June, 2024.
Dave Duenas: And then, Fully baked in by June of 2025, and Anil was just going, we've already done the analysis on this, and we're a not-for-profit hospital, and that's a $200 million impact to us. So that then becomes a $200 million impact to the carriers, which then go, you know, it just trickles downhill from there.
Dave Duenas: Those
types
Dave Duenas: that's happening. You're seeing where Medicare reimbursements and even from a Medicare Advantage, and again, I won't name the particular hospital, but one of them is saying, Hey, as of January one, we're no longer gonna accept Medicare Advantage. I think they'll get a short hiccup. From that, but you know, ultimately if people wanna have that particular provider system, they're just gonna sign up for the fee for service type of Medicare, but.
Dave Duenas: That's happening. And I think, you know, as I said from that McKinsey report, we have a close relationship with the good people at McKinsey. And they shared a report that showed how the hospitals are underwater and what they're going to have to do. 'cause hospitals are slow to respond, if you will, and they trail the the events by a couple years.
Dave Duenas: This is going to be a two, three year process where we're gonna see these types of hardened renewals. And I think that's where that system and its ultimate impact to employees. And then you get these types of increases from the hospitals and you know, we're also seeing almost like revenge care. You know, I thought we wouldn't really see it 'cause people deferred care from the covid period, but they're actually above pre covid encounter rates and not marginally significantly.
Dave Duenas: So, and I just don't know if people are looking, the types of increases they're getting, they're going, well, if I'm gonna pay for this, I'm gonna get my money's worth out of it. And rightfully they should if they need care. But I can't sit here and say there's a magic pill we're gonna be able to take to abate what's happening.
Dave Duenas: I. Currently to employers and what they face. So what they really have to do is figure out what is driving, what are the headwinds in their disease burdens that they're going to need to address more efficiently than, you know, doing programs that look good on its face, but really aren't attacking what's driving the claims.
Dave Duenas: In their population. And that's where I think self-insuring has such a better advantage. And the ability with technology and the kind of data that's available, typically 30 days in arrears when you can actually do something about it. I think that's where unfortunately we're we're headed. And you know, the fully insured carriers are gonna need to respond 'cause they don't like losing market share.
Dave Duenas: And that'll be for the better of everyone. But right now, you know, I don't see them moving that quickly. I.
Sasha: No, I agree with you. So, Dave, knowing engagement's important, I'm gonna throw out a cliche term in our industry, ROI, right? So when you're working with your clients and you're talking to them, in your opinion as a leader, as a consultant, what does that ROI result information, data, what they're getting, what does that mean for you to be able to share that with your clients?
Dave Duenas: Yeah, I think that, you know, there was a while where, you know it was ROI, ROI, ROI, and I think that time has passed if you have a net positive financial effect. It's like cool. But to be able to correlate the ROI based on a specific technology or strategy and say that the alpha relationship of what you did and its correlation back to the dollar saved, like, I don't know, I just not that smart.
Dave Duenas: Right? And I don't, I think that most people go, I can't 100% say, X plus Y solved for Z and I, I see less of that. I think people just go, do our employees like our plan? Are we able to manage it and continue to offer a plan that is meaningful to our employees and the people they love? I think the most employers think more broadly than being a little bit of a.
Dave Duenas: You know, financial nerd and going, what was the ROI on that? And then when you do get an ROI for a particular point solution and it comes back and again, I think, oh, it's awesome. Next. Right? So that's what I see.
Sasha: And I will say in the past year, I've run into a couple of our clients, a couple of members that utilize the Collective Health platform, but in general, they've made comments about how happy they are with their experience, and whether that's with Collective Health or with with whoever.
Sasha: I just feel like you've hit on it more than once, that the true member experience, things being easy for them to access. Is more important than ever. And so I just think it's coming up more than it ever has in our industry. So, and employers really care about their employees.
Dave Duenas: Yep. And I think that, you know, we can talk about the apps on my iPhone and the elegance of hailing a ride on Uber or Lyft or, you know, name the application.
Dave Duenas: It's like, ugh. That was awesome. Plugging in an address in, in ways or maps and just going, okay, that's where I get there and there's a, there's a cop over there and this was great and I didn't really have to do anything. It was all there for me and I think that is so missing and like, you know, we'll take care of our dating.
Dave Duenas: I. But these other things are not under our domain. And I think that platform, the pipes and infrastructure that a collective and others do to make that more seamless to go, I have one place to call. That's great because when I need it, and I don't know when I'm gonna need this service, I only know that I need to call one number and that either I can self-serve or there's a human on the other side of this saying, I got you.
Dave Duenas: I think that's worth its weight in gold.
Sasha: Couldn't agree with you more. I think that leads me probably to my closing comment and question of, I feel like our industry is changing in a way that people are choosing to start in healthcare. When you think back to when you started, what was those first couple years like?
Sasha: And I would love for you to maybe share some wisdom with anyone listening, you know, what would some of the tips or advice you would give someone starting out in our industry, I.
Dave Duenas: Yeah, so when I first got into this business, my father-in-law was the manager of Mutual New York, and he would had been after me for years to get into the industry and he goes, oh, you'd be great in our business.
Dave Duenas: And I'm like, get away from me, dude. I'm gonna be somebody. And he wore me out and I got into this and he introduced me to the Western Regional President for Mutual of New York, and his name was John Cesi. And I was so fortunate to have had John in my life, and especially just entering into the industry, and Joe asked him on my behalf, he goes, John, will you tell Dave what the uh, secret to making in our industry is?
Dave Duenas: And I'm sitting there ready to just write down these words there, this manna from heaven that's gonna come down. And he goes, last five years be in this industry for five years and people will know that you, they'll take you seriously. And I'm like, that's it. And there is some truth to it, right? Because when people
want
Dave Duenas: to, like, even though they may like you, they may have some association with you and they wanna see you make it.
Dave Duenas: They don't wanna necessarily trust you with their company, their livelihood. They wanna make sure that there's someone that's an expert at what they do, has that knowledge and experience to be able to solve problems versus someone who's just starting out. So I think in our industry, we've done a poor job of mentoring there, you know, from the old days.
Dave Duenas: And I think it's changing, especially, especially in the healthcare side of the equation where. We hire people, hire, we assign them mentors. I'm mentoring someone right now. He's just a wonderful young man and I think he's gonna do really good things, but he needs the experience. And he needs to see that people are just trying to solve a problem and you know it well, you just need to have more at bats to be able to inject your experience and tie in things.
Dave Duenas: 'cause you've seen it before. And that just comes with time. So he's by my side, we're on calls, we go to calls. We have calls with our team on how we're gonna do this, and then we role play it back. And so I think that's what our industry needs to do more of. And I think it more of like a, if you hire someone and they don't make it, that's a failure on you, not a failure on them.
Dave Duenas: And it's a great industry. It is an industry. I'm so thankful for the gifts that I've been able to provide to my family, and I think it's helping people when they need it most. It has its own rewards, right? And I think sometimes we get too lost in all of the big strategic stuff. I still take calls. And I will go in and advocate sometimes.
Dave Duenas: 'cause our service staffs, they work, their tail ends off. And sometimes, because I started in this industry and I was all by myself, I was everything c e o to, you know, maintenance engineer. So I could do everyone's job. And I think especially in peak times when the service teams really need help, it's like, give me something.
Dave Duenas: Because I don't want them to burn out, right? Because it's with 90% of the world renewing on one one, their world goes nuts at the end of the year. So I think being able to help out people when it may be not as intense a time for me, but a very intense time for them, I think that's, you know, something that's, that's appreciated and that we all should do is help out and not stay in some silo going my job.
Dave Duenas: Done. That's a service team item. I don't need to help. And they're proud people. Even if they say, Hey look, I got this. I go, okay. But I'm sure it's still appreciated that you throw your hat in the ring. I know one of the things that we talked about was what tip would you share? With someone. And you know, I really kind of distill it down to even what I tell my kids and what I strive for every day.
Dave Duenas: Remember, it's aspirational. What I'm gonna say is just be better. Be better at what you do every day. And I think being better is part of being that is also being curious. It's one of the main things I look for when I interview someone is are they curious about why is it that way? And then change your point of view and walk around the other side and look at from a different viewpoint.
Dave Duenas: And that is one of the traits that I really admire and respect. And then I think in this day and age, I would also add to that be kind. I. We don't know what goes through everyone on a daily basis and they might bring things and we're all human and you know, I'm not perfect at any of these, but I try and remind myself too about each of those.
Dave Duenas: So those are the things I would, I would say, and then I think you'll find people that align with you. I don't want every deal. I wanna work with employers that want to improve the condition of their employees' lives and knowing that they work their tail line to offer them, and that this is our return back to those people.
Sasha: Well said. Dave, I have to hit on two of the points you made that I could not agree more on taking the service calls. I am so with you on that, and here's why. One, it's helping people, right? It's jumping in and helping. Rolling up our sleeves no matter what role anybody's in and helping others. But also for me as a leader, that's where I learn, I still stay connected to the market, to the employers, to what's going on, on just a day-to-day basis.
Sasha: So I love that advice. And I would say, I think you made a comment about there's not really any tricks, but get back in person if people will see you. Yeah. I feel like. With C O V I D, with the industry, pick up the phone, we text, we email, we slack, we message we WebEx, and I feel like if we can, in addition to getting back to some of that old school mentorship, if we also just start connecting the way we used to, to me that makes a big difference.
Sasha: Especially as you're learning, and
Dave Duenas: I agree a hundred percent. 'cause sometimes, you know, we will find out like, what's going on with this? And they go, well, I've texted them, I've, I've emailed them a, a number of times I haven't gotten a response. I go, there's this thing called a phone. Pick up the phone and connect with someone because they have a million things going on too.
Dave Duenas: So sometimes you just need the squeaky wheel, gets the grease. You need to pick up the phone and connect. I think it's more efficient. You can try the one or two. If it doesn't get it, then just go. Hey, dude, we need to talk. We need to get this solved. And I think again, good people want to solve these things, and it's a good reminder that everything we do and deliver, there's people at the very end of it.
Dave Duenas: And that they need your help. They don't know what we know. And I would say that one thing is that our industry, and it's always the carrier, the first call we get is that the carrier's denying this. And our thing is to say, you know what? I'd like to do a 360 on this and let me find out where the point of failure is happening on this claim.
Dave Duenas: And then let's assign the blame. Now, again, tongue in cheek, but there are as many faults in the provider end of this that they sent it through the wrong channel. It was supposed to be urgent. They sent it through regular. There are many faults everywhere, and that's why I said take a step back. It's not just the carriers in this.
Dave Duenas: Let's find out where it is and we just wanna get your claim paid. We wanna get your approval done. Let's do that. Be patient and let us work it through and then we'll pick up the phone. I think so much of this business is still done with an arm around the shoulder and just saying, I need your help. And people just go, okay, I'm in.
Dave Duenas: I'll help.
Sasha: Agree. And I was gonna say, for those that are on the sales side or producing side, you're making that call to get an answer, but that you're always gonna get one more piece of nugget of information. On that phone call if you pick up and make that outreach.
Dave Duenas: Sure. And you know, we can deal with the truth and we, we find out where that point of
failure
Dave Duenas: is, then we can address it.
Dave Duenas: And in my experience, there's a lot of times it's not the carrier, right? 'cause the carrier's just. Like I'm processing something the way it's come into us and it's come into us wrong, and then of course we're gonna decline it. Now they could be a little more human in the declination process, but I also get, they're processing millions of claims.
Dave Duenas: They can't call everybody and go, Hey, can you get your doctor to do X, Y, and Z? It's just an automated, because otherwise you'd be inundated. But that's our job is to step in and be human.
Sasha: Love that. We will end on that because I think that's just very well said. I would love for you just share with everyone if they wanna reach out to you.
Sasha: You may get a lot of mentor requests on LinkedIn now, so let everybody know where to find you.
Dave Duenas: It’s just david.duenas@hubinternational.com, so that's me.
Sasha: Great. And also on LinkedIn. I'm sure. So Dave, it's been so great having you. I think we covered a lot of topics, so thank you for being a part of this.
Dave Duenas: I appreciate being on.