This episode features an interview with Dr. Smita Das, Vice President of Psychiatry and Complex Care at Lyra Health. Smita is board certified in psychiatry, addiction psychiatry, and addiction medicine and has over 20 years of research experience. Previously, she served as President of an American Psychiatric Association District Branch and chair of the APA's Council on Addiction Psychiatry. Smita is also a clinical associate professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford School of Medicine. In this episode, Sasha and Smita dive into Lyra Health’s Complex Care Program, how the conversation around sobriety is changing, and how addiction and mental health psychiatry differ and intertwine.
This episode features an interview with Dr. Smita Das, Vice President of Psychiatry and Complex Care at Lyra Health. Smita is board certified in psychiatry, addiction psychiatry, and addiction medicine and has over 20 years of research experience. Previously, she served as President of an American Psychiatric Association District Branch and chair of the APA's Council on Addiction Psychiatry. Smita is also a clinical associate professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford School of Medicine.
In this episode, Sasha and Smita dive into Lyra Health’s Complex Care Program, how the conversation around sobriety is changing, and how addiction and mental health psychiatry differ and intertwine.
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“There's so many places where somebody can fall through the cracks, for one reason or another. It could be coverage. It could be that they couldn't find a facility or that there were too many options and they had analysis paralysis, or they went to a place that wasn't actually evidence-based or at the bar that we expect at Lyra. Then, they're actually worse off because now maybe they've paid out of pocket tens of thousands of dollars and they didn't actually get better.” – Dr. Smita Das
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Episode Timestamps:
*(01:28): Smita’s career background
*(05:25): Why point solution access is important
*(09:15): Smita explains Lyra Complex Care
*(23:50): How addiction and mental health psychiatry differ and intertwine
*(29:15): Examples of employers who have accessible recovery programs
*(33:12): Smita’s advice for employers looking into complex care
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Links:
Connect with Dr. Das on LinkedIn
Connect with Sasha on LinkedIn
Learn more about Collective Health
Sasha Yamaguchi: Let's face it, healthcare is confusing and costs are continuing to rise. Employers are looking for ways to improve the health of their people and their bottom lines. The good news? Many leading companies are leveraging self funded health plans and innovative benefit solutions to do just that. Learn from some of the best minds in employee health.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Welcome to the Benefits Playbook, Strategies for Self Funded Health Plans. I'm your host, Sasha Yamaguchi. Commercial Leader at Collective Health. On today's episode, we are joined by Dr. Smita Das, Vice President of Psychiatry and Complex Care at Lyra Health. Dr. Das is board certified in Psychiatry, Addiction Psychiatry, and Addiction Medicine, and has over 20 years of research experience.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Previously, she served as President of an American Psychiatric Association District Branch and Chair of the APA's Council on Addiction Psychiatry. Dr. Das is also a Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford School of Medicine. Thank you so much for being with us, Dr. Das. Can't wait for our conversation today.
Smita Das: I'm so delighted to be here.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Great. So, of course, we're going to talk a lot about mental health. We're going to talk about Lyra Health, which is the company that you're with and a part of. But I would love to start with your background. Tell us a little bit about yourself and then, of course, what led you to joining Lyra Health.
Smita Das: Well, if I start from the beginning, and I promise this won't be long, uh, when I was in college, I majored in chemistry, I actually really actually wanted to be a lawyer, I was interested in policy and lawmaking. I took a job, a data entry, it was one of these kind of chance things where I took a data entry job to make some money on the side.
Smita Das: And I ended up working for a smoking cessation program, a hospital intervention. And I actually, as part of that role, in addition to data entry, I got to do the intervention at the bedside for people who were trying to quit smoking. And now I know that the intervention that I was doing was CBT or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
Smita Das: That research really motivated me to minor in statistics. the power of research and what we can do with data to try to improve health was Very interesting to me. That led to me doing a master's of public health and a PhD in community health. And finally, I went on to medical school. Once I finished psychiatry residency and addiction fellowship, I had the privilege of working at the Palo Alto VA system, where I was the director of all things addiction from outpatient to medication clinics,
Smita Das: to therapy, to residential programs, to inpatient admissions. And in that role, I was generally trying to get the word out about using evidence based approaches to care. So kind of thinking back to my initial excitement about policy, I was continuing to try to get systems to change so that they were more effective
Smita Das: offering treatments that work. We have a lot of treatments that work and are effective. They're just really not used. And so that's where kind of Lyra came in about five years ago. I tend to be a little old fashioned. And at the same time, when this company reached out about a role that could do just what I was interested in, meaning
Smita Das: getting evidence based care out to larger number of people that, that piqued my interest. And sure enough, you know, I'm here five years later and still continuing to work on that mission.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That's wonderful. And, and I'm excited to talk about Lyra and what you're doing in your role there. One question that I would love really quick to hit on is, you mentioned programs that work, they're just not being used.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I would love immediately for you to just touch on that a bit because I feel like that's so important leading into our conversation of Why aren't they used? I would love your thoughts on that.
Smita Das: Yeah, that's a really great question. So what I mean by we have programs that work, we have interventions that do work.
Smita Das: So I'm always excited about new research into the newest thing that's going to help change psychiatry or mental health. And at the same time, we know that there's a lot of interventions that when they do things like randomized control trials are very effective and can help people getting better and getting better reliably.
Smita Das: I think the disconnect has been taking those interventions and then having them be scalable. And in addition to that, putting all the puzzle pieces together. You may have intervention A and intervention B and mental health. It's not. It's not. Always so simple that A is all you need, you may need both of them.
Smita Das: And if we can't connect those two puzzle pieces together effectively, kind of from a public health lens, then there's a gap. And so while we have interventions that work in the traditional ecosystem, we don't have a way for everybody to get access to them. And traditional healthcare systems aren't necessarily equipped to make that happen.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yeah. That makes sense. No, I love that you expanded on that a bit. I think that applies to a couple of different things in our industry, I'm sure, as well. So, talking about Lyra Health for a bit, I think those of us that have been in the industry for a while, the traditional sense is members access a network of providers, right?
Sasha Yamaguchi: So, you know, years ago, it's changed over the last few, a member would go to their network. You know, whichever network that may be, and they would access their care. I feel like now with programs such as Lyra and others, there is this alternative way to, to get care and get information. Why is that access important?
Sasha Yamaguchi: And what are your thoughts on how that's evolved over the last couple of years of members now having both the network, but also these additional ways to access their care?
Smita Das: Yeah, I think it's really important to have multiple possible points of entry so that there is no wrong front door. When it comes to mental health, especially, I think the network can be overwhelming.
Smita Das: There's a lot that an individual member may not know. I know, for example, when it comes to outside of mental health, and I had a colleague who works in mental health recently who sent me a list of providers for another diagnosis set and asked if I knew of any of them because, you know, we happen to have been in the same circles.
Smita Das: And really that's, that's the way that this person who's a physician is really trying to navigate the healthcare system because they have a network and they have a list. And they don't know exactly what to do with that. I think with these point solutions like Lyra, there's a couple of things. First is all we do is mental health, right?
Smita Das: And so we have the slight advantage of not having to worry about, you know, all of the aspects of physical health and surgical and so on. It's really mental health. And we're laser focused on what we can do for mental health. And that enables us to then have a custom design solution. That is very mental health specific.
Smita Das: Everything from not just obviously the access and the quality, which we have a very high bar for, but also things like how we invite people into getting care. It's different for, you know, if somebody has a, I use the example this morning, a broken bone, they're going to approach getting care in a different way than if it's mental health.
Smita Das: And so we have to really thoughtfully piece that together and design it so that it is the most engaging for our members.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That's great. And I think just having that focus on it, right, and the attention that your team is able to give. And I, I do want to get into a lot of what Lyra does, because I think one, hearing about the programs, but also it'll share with everyone how important it is
Sasha Yamaguchi: to have that singular focus to help members. As you and I talk, we are ending the month of May, and this episode is coming out to kickstart June. And May, of course, is Mental Health Awareness Month, but I feel like this is something that always needs to be talked about, right? So, would love your thoughts on how to keep that conversation going, and then, what are Why is it important that we continually educate and help people throughout the year, not just during May?
Smita Das: Yeah, while I love that May is Mental Health Awareness Month, I do want to do what you just said, just keep the conversation going. When it comes to mental health, there's been traditionally so much separation and separation. stigma associated with mental health. And so the more that we can integrate mental health awareness into every single month, the better it is.
Smita Das: Again, to reduce the amount of friction and the barriers that our loved ones in our communities face in accessing care. So I love for example, there's some other months there. Recovery Month and others that we can then lean on to try to do some of these blips of awareness. And I see it as my duty to try to have these conversations going.
Smita Das: So I am delighted that we are here in June having this conversation.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yes, we are, we're going to keep it going um, every month of the year because it is so important. And of course, mental health affects every, so much else for that person during the day, right? Presenteeism, how they show up to their family at work, so it's just, it's It's extremely important throughout the year to be helping and educating everyone.
Sasha Yamaguchi: So let's talk about LyraHealth. Would love to share with everyone some of the programs that you all are doing. If you could start with the new, you have a new complex care program. Let's start with that and how you're working with individuals with their mental health conditions.
Smita Das: Yeah, thanks. That's a great question.
Smita Das: So, our Complex Care offering was announced just a few months ago in February. And what I had in mind was, if we're thinking about an employer's most severe and high acuity members, those are the people that I'm really focusing in on. At Lyra, we offer the most comprehensive and complete solution, not just for the majority of members.
Smita Das: But for all of the members. So it's really important to include these higher acuity and more severe needs members into the fold. So let's say we think of somebody who needs a higher level of care, or they have had difficulty because the mental health care system outside of Lyra is fragmented and frustrating.
Smita Das: They may be overwhelmed. Maybe they do an internet search. It leads to them selecting a lower quality facility or treatment. And they may just say, you know, this That's too much. And I'm not going to get treatment. I'm going to go to an ER instead. And that results in a really high cost visit as well as treatment.
Smita Das: Maybe even hospitalization. And so we wanted to have a solution that helps with these entities that are outside of Lyra, helps bring them into the mix. And so that we can really be there from end to end, holding a member's hand so that they don't have to jump through those hoops. They don't have to do the guesswork.
Smita Das: They have, Someone who is knowledgeable and supported by a multidisciplinary team in their corner. So it starts with a full assessment that is then discussed with the multidisciplinary team as well as with the family, if the member wants that to be a part of it, and other providers to really see, okay.
Smita Das: What does this person need? Sometimes somebody may kind of just knee jerk say, I need a residential program. This happens a lot with substance use disorders, but maybe there's something else that's a better fit for them. And then once we develop a care plan for the member in collaboration with all of those entities, we then take the burden off of them by trying to help Navigate and get them to one of our Lyra facility partners.
Smita Das: So we have a list of nearly 300 and growing programs. And it's not just that we have a number to refer people to. We actually have relationships with these places. And so there's an expectation that we're doing this coordination, that we're really holding on to the member together and share a common goal of seeing this person, not just to that level of care, but
Smita Das: through to recovery. And I think that's really special. It's not enough to connect people. We then also need to help them with step down care because we know a lot of recurrence happens in that time in between when somebody is discharged from a facility and whether or not they may not even get that outpatient care.
Smita Das: Lyra also, uh, is the only solution that has in house integrated care for members with the highest risk needs. So, from therapy, obviously, to recovery. Lastly, to medication management, a full SUD program, help with suicidality with our DBT program, group sessions, 24 7 support from our care navigation team.
Smita Das: It's all integrated and coordinated through Lyra. So when a member like this is trying to access care and manage these severe symptoms, we don't want them to bounce around from solution to solution. We want to offer an integrated experience for all of these needs within our ecosystem.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I think that's so important as you're talking through the program.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I mean, I think about a member who finally has the courage to seek help. And there are so many times they don't know where to start. They don't know who to reach out to, what provider, what facility. So it sounds like you're literally like a concierge in that we're here to help and get you started on that path.
Sasha Yamaguchi: And I feel like I assume the percentage of participation is much higher when they have this type of support than out there navigating it on their own.
Smita Das: Absolutely. There's so many places where somebody can fall through the cracks, right, for one reason or another. It could be coverage, it could be that they couldn't find a facility or that there were too many options and they had analysis paralysis.
Smita Das: They went to a place that wasn't actually evidence based or at the bar that we expect at Lyra, and so then they're actually worse off because now maybe they've paid out of pocket tens of thousands of dollars, and they didn't actually get better. So all of these things, these are, if we're thinking from a public health point of view, the Swiss cheese model, there's So many places where these holes can align and somebody can end up having a really bad outcome and so I think about my own family or I think about the family members of patients that I see in the office and I, I think they are really trying to help their loved one navigate such a hard thing and they themselves are suffering and so we want to be that person.
Smita Das: We want to be the people that, you know, you can say, I feel comfortable with my family member holding your hand and getting through this.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think the family, either family or friends that are in the situation trying to help somebody also has no idea how to navigate it, right?
Sasha Yamaguchi: So it sounds like when somebody's engaged in your program, there's an option to have a family member, a friend as part of it as well. So they're not only the support system, but also seeing The work you're doing to try to help support it on the back end as well.
Smita Das: Absolutely. And of course, if that family member has the benefit as well, we want to connect them to care.
Smita Das: And it's the idea of putting the oxygen mask on. We want to give them the oxygen mask so they can take care of themselves and we can take on some of the burden that they've been experiencing.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Oh, wow. That's a great point because the person supporting could also have things that they need help on.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Everybody does in some sense. Are there specific benefits that members get? So we've talked a little bit about the navigation of it, how to get them places. Are there certain benefits that As an employer chooses Lyra Health within the program that you're offering, can you speak about some of the benefits that are available?
Smita Das: Yeah, we've mentioned some of them. One of them that I will reemphasize is that they do have access to this really great kind of very thoroughly vetted group of facilities that we have that are the Lyra Facility Partners. And so in building this and in also building our criteria of what. is required to be a high quality facility.
Smita Das: Again, I thought about, obviously, the basics of what is considered evidence based, what do general credentialing guidelines require, what are all of those nuts and bolts things that when I was overseeing residential programs and so on, what were we subject to? But in addition to that, do I actually want somebody For my family to attend this program.
Smita Das: So it's a level of very clinical and operational vetting. And then there's an element of us kind of thinking about, is this good enough for it to be part of what we associate with Lyra? And so that, in addition to these really close relationships that we have with Lyra, These facility partners really helps again in that part where we we know in the science and the evidence and the research around this that it's that gap and that coordination and that disconnect that really leads to people kind of coming in and out of care.
Smita Das: And so that helps to, I think, of. Mental health is, it's a puzzle and, and we are really serving as that glue in between those pieces. And of course, the person has continued access to our longitudinal model, which even once they get connected to care and step down from care, we know those next few months are really critical.
Smita Das: And so we keep checking in with them. We keep seeing, okay, are they continuing to progress or is there going to be a hiccup? Because there often is. And what can we do to strategize? How can we, loop in our multidisciplinary team to find solutions. And so there's a lot of just ongoing problem solving and longitudinal support.
Sasha Yamaguchi: So you've mentioned step down a couple of times. I think that's so important. Can you share Maybe some statistics or just as a member finishes the main program, you've got members that do the step down approach and have that support. You have some that are like, I'm fine, I got this, and they go on their own.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Maybe share with the audience the vast difference of results, because I assume they are, of people that are still doing some type of program as they come out and step down. versus just going out and thinking they've got it under control.
Smita Das: Yeah, well, that, that data is, will hopefully be forthcoming from Lyra.
Smita Das: What I will say is in the literature, for example, when we're looking at substance use disorders, the step down care is very clearly associated with how somebody does In terms of their substance use outcomes at 6 and 12 months. This is so important that this is part of measures in mental health. So there's national measures that are from accreditation agencies.
Smita Das: So an example are like HEDIS measures that look at the percent of People that are connected to a follow up appointment after a psychiatric stay of some sort and it's a bit dismal in, in the community. It can be kind of, uh, the highest we're looking at is 50 to 60 percent in the best of, of systems and, and lower than that in, in kind of more generally.
Smita Das: And so, so our goal is to really try to change that with this ongoing connection. And even if a member says, you know what, I don't want your step down care, I don't We're still going to offer to be in touch with them because they may not want it now, but they may kind of go around the carousel, come back and say, I, I actually do need that now.
Smita Das: And so we can pivot at any point and help them connect to that.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yeah. I was going to ask, even for those that say that, I assume you have some sort of post check in. Knowing that they may on one of those calls say, you know what, I do need some support again. So I'm sure that's very important. Absolutely. I know you launched just a couple of months ago.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Are you all seeing maybe not results quite yet, but just reactions? What's the initial engagement like that you've seen so far in this program?
Smita Das: Yeah, the engagement has been really, really encouraging for me. I think people are a little taken aback when we're able to connect with them. Like, oh, you're going to do all of this stuff for me?
Smita Das: I thought you're just going to give me, you know, a list and which, you know, oftentimes is better than, than what they're going to, which may be the internet. And you're going to, you're going to walk me through all this and then you're going to be there later. I think that that is really special. has been really surprising to folks and we've gotten a lot of positive feedback from so many of our members who have engaged with our team, not just about the team and the alliance and the process, but also with the concrete outcomes like I have been in and out of care for years and for the first time I feel like I have a good plan moving forward.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I'm sure a good foundational plan it sounds like, really. For those that may not know, how does a member know about your program? So, are you doing proactive reach out? Obviously, employers may be educating their members that it's available. I think it'd be helpful for anyone listening. How does someone get to your program?
Smita Das: Yeah, that's a great question. So we again, similar to a lot of our other philosophies when it comes to like, we don't want to exclude anyone from finding us. We try to have all of the different routes of trying to find us. And so if someone is eligible and they get referred to needing a higher level of care, for example, then our systems allow them, those who have this benefit, allow them to come directly to our team to be able to then connect with them.
Smita Das: I think something that I'm really excited about is the potential for proactive outreach with. Partners like Collective Health, where we work together and we say, okay, this is the type of member that may be in and out of care that we might want to try to offer some more outreach on. And then partnering to be able to then capture that member from two trusted sources, Collective Health and Lyra Health, and then bring them in and be able to then see this transformation happen.
Smita Das: That's been really great. I'm delighted with where we're going when it comes to all of that. More proactive outreach because these are members who they may not present in the regular ways. Their way of presenting may be a few ER visits and we need to be able to figure that out for them.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Definitely. And I feel like this ties to another topic of they may not always right away raise their hand that they need help or something that I would love to talk to you about is I feel like there's been this turn in the last couple of years of sobriety is actually cool.
Sasha Yamaguchi: It's okay to be sober, to choose that, whether it's because you need to or by choice or whatever it may be, but are you seeing employers and members and others really being more open about sobriety as a choice and does that help get more participation in some of these programs?
Smita Das: It goes beyond recovery from a substance use disorder or an alcohol use disorder.
Smita Das: I think it goes to recovery from all things that are more complex. And so, so yeah, so there's certainly been a lovely shift. What I've appreciated is kind of in my early time at Lyra, I was seeing and appreciating how well employers were doing with bringing Mental health to the forefront, like anxiety and depression, and especially in the pandemic, like it just, I always think about what's the silver lining of the public health emergency.
Smita Das: We actually started talking about stress. We actually started talking about these things at work, anxiety, depression. We paid a lot of attention, and I am so impressed by our employer partners who have really moved the needle when it comes to that. I think more recently, there has been increased attention to some of these more higher complexity things that maybe folks were a little bit nervous about talking about.
Smita Das: And so that includes, as you said, not using substances or being in recovery where it's a cool thing for any reason. Somebody can choose not to use substances and people are also are increasingly being encouraged to get treatment instead of sweeping it under the rug.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yeah, no, I agree. And I, as you were talking about the silver lining of the pandemic, I mean, I feel like 20 years ago, nobody would say, I'm going to take off tomorrow for a mental health day.
Smita Das: Absolutely.
Sasha Yamaguchi: You were thought of as weak or you just wouldn't share that to be quite honest. So I agree. I mean, I, it's so great that people are openly talking and a program like Lyra, I could see employees recommending it to peers, right? And just, I don't think that would have happened years ago. So, I would love to talk kinda along these lines.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Of course, you have the addiction psychiatry as well that you're board certified in. Can we talk about how addiction psychiatry differs from mental health? And then, of course, I'm sure it's intertwined as well.
Smita Das: It's a great question, and my response would be that it doesn't differ. That addiction or substance use disorders are their mental health diagnoses.
Smita Das: You know, anxiety, depression, alcohol use disorder, so on. They're all in the DSM or the Diagnostic Statistical Manual from the American Psychiatric Association. They're all the diagnoses that fall under mental health. Both are brain based illnesses with multifactorial components that are part of their etiology and also part of their treatment.
Smita Das: And so I'm encouraged that I think we're moving to a place where there's the way that we have normalized treatment for mental health conditions in general is also expanding to the subset of mental health conditions that includes substance use disorders.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That's great. And you made a comment, brain based illness, which again, I'm not an expert, but that made me think of how individuals will see somebody and say, just get it under control.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I'm kind of going on a sidebar here, but I think this is all important to understand that maybe dive a little deeper into what brain based illness means, because I think that's an important context to this.
Smita Das: Yeah, so brain based illness, it's, I take that for example from the National Institute of Drug Abuse, NIDA.
Smita Das: They have an excellent resource on substance use disorders, our brain. Based disorders. It's not a moral failing. It's not a choice. It's not something that somebody just has to get over. It is something that is a medical condition. And as such, we need to give it the same, the same respect and kind of, dare I say the parody that we have with other medical conditions.
Smita Das: It's such a strange thing where when it comes to, I always use this analogy. So when it comes to. to heart health, for example. We do so much. At the age I'm at now, I go in and I get my cholesterol checked and my blood pressure checked and all of these things and then I'm given advice on the stuff that I need to change and should things get a little worse, then maybe I will be on a medication that'll prevent a serious heart related thing.
Smita Das: And so this is how we treat. that set of medical conditions known as heart disease in healthcare. And when it comes to substance use disorders, we skip all of that. And it's really when somebody needs what we would generally refer to as rehab, that we start paying attention to it. Like, the absolute worst outcome that there could be for somebody is a hospitalization, and obviously death, but a hospitalization right before that.
Smita Das: And similarly, if we said that the, that same outcome, let's say a heart attack, was where we start doing treatment in heart disease care, like, That would be absurd. And so, we need to accept that this is a medical condition, and there's all these things that we can do. Again, we have the science to, to show all of those steps, and we just need to implement them more.
Smita Das: And so, that's why, again, part of my, my role at Lyra is to architect our clinical programs. And I, I look at, what is the evidence? What do we know that we haven't taken advantage of so that we can then put that into a system where we're treating these conditions, again, with the respect that they deserve as medical conditions.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Well said and I love how you just teed that up because I wrote down the same respect as other conditions and it's so true in that to wait to treat it like a heart, we just wouldn't do that with heart or obesity keeps circling in my mind as well. I feel like that falls into this a little bit, right?
Sasha Yamaguchi: Because it's also tied to mental health and, but I think that's so important and that ties to what we were saying of being more opened, employers offering more education around this topic because it is important to treat it same respect as other major categories.
Smita Das: Yes, and in fact, there's federal legislation that we've been lucky to see over the last several years that has said.
Smita Das: Let's give it that same respect and not pigeonhole either substance use disorders and mental other mental health conditions because they are medical conditions.
Sasha Yamaguchi: And it may get people talking about it more openly if they feel that it's not this hidden thing. I assume the more it's openly discussed and treated similarly to other conditions, people may be more open to talk about it and not feel like it's this big secret.
Smita Das: Yes. And what you're doing here right now with this podcast, like, I love it because you're helping to get the word out. And part of outside of Lyra, part of the work that I do is on an advocacy level at the American Psychiatric Association. And we just did it. The presidential initiative for this last year was really to get the word out about substance use disorders, not to educate people in the nitty gritty and the science, but to just say, Substance use disorders exist, they are treatable, we have science, and you should be comfortable seeking treatment.
Smita Das: And so, the more that we can, as you said, get the word out and educate people and remind people through avenues like your podcast, the better.
Sasha Yamaguchi: No, that's great. And one thing on that topic, I know that one of our clients is doing a program around this, and I would love to pivot over to the employer side for a minute.
Sasha Yamaguchi: And what we're talking about about openness. Do you have an example, an employer that you all have partnered with that two things have made it more open and they're discussing it within the company and supporting it. But then also after that, I would love to get into, you The employer side of it, I always like to share how this is going to help them as well, right?
Sasha Yamaguchi: At the end of the day, there is also the plan and the utilization, which affects everyone. So maybe share an example of Lyra's working with an employer and making a big difference, and then we can get into for a bit on how this is helping the overall plan utilization.
Smita Das: Yeah, so I have lots of examples.
Smita Das: I've been very fortunate to be invited to, you know, many webinars, especially where employees are attending. And it's really lovely to see leadership also represented there and speaking openly about their journeys because things like a substance use disorder, they affect everybody. There's no group that is, is immune to a substance use disorder.
Smita Das: I'll give a very specific example of one of those that's been just growing more and more robust every year. And they're very. Public with, with how they, they do things. An example is SoberForce put on by Salesforce. And so it's a subgroup of their AbilityForce, one of their main equality groups, and their mission is to make Salesforce more inclusive for all employees by
Smita Das: destigmatizing seeking help for substance use issues, normalizing recovery, creating inclusion for sobriety, or as you mentioned earlier, sober, curious for any reason, as well as offering support for those impacted by addiction struggles of loved ones. So thinking about the family too. And they also work to Internally, try to help Salesforce decenter culture away from alcohol use as the default.
Smita Das: There was a time where going to an up and coming company would, you would kind of walk through and, and see bars all over the place that are built into the way that the place is engineered. And so I think from a structural point of view, that's step number one. But what's really been lovely is joining some of these events, Dreamforce, being there and being a part of just such a moving event where.
Smita Das: You have all of these people coming together and socializing and bonding and not drinking alcohol to again, the webinars where somebody in leadership will or a really high level role will share their struggles and how they wish that they had something like what's happening now or this movement that's happening at many companies now
Smita Das: to be able to have leaned on when they were struggling. And this is contagious in a good way, where there's this movement that several employers and others are catching on. It's been really great to see at Lyra us adopt some of the language and some of the initiatives within our own company internally as well.
Sasha Yamaguchi: No, that's great. And I think that is where the shift starts to happen. What was really interesting is how you hit on, and it's true. I mean, years ago, everything would be centered around alcohol, right? When I first started working, we would bring a bar in and have happy hour in the office. And so now it's, you can have events where it's not the immediate attraction of the event or the main center of it.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Doesn't mean there's not drinking, but I think that's a really interesting thing. And I think the senior leadership part is so important. Anytime in our industry. We always say when employees are seeing that from senior leadership, it helps a lot. And I've spoken to LiveNation, they've got SoberNation, and it's just, I think it's really great that these are open programs that very prominent companies are doing for their employees.
Smita Das: Yes, and they want other companies to copy them. So this isn't protected material, they want others to follow in their lead. And so I feel honored to be a part of some of these movements.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I agree. So, as we wrap up, if there's an employer listening or a member who wants to go to HR and say, I would love that we have a program like this, what advice would you give employers to looking into something like your complex care and building it into what they offer to their employees?
Smita Das: I would say a few things. One is just being open to the idea that these employees exist. There's been a few occasions where employers have kind, might have turned a, a blind eye to this and said, Nope, we're doing anxiety, depression, nobody has these other problems. Everybody's okay. And so being open to that discussion and two, looking at their data.
Smita Das: This isn't a secret. There usually are very clear signals and things like claims data that show, for example, that out of all of their medical health care spend, how much even non behavioral health spend, how much is related to employees or members who have a diagnosis that has been inadequately treated.
Smita Das: So an alcohol use disorder or a really severe depression, so on. What does that look like in terms of the dollar and cents? So then they can go and if they don't have something like Lyra, then advocate for having something like Lyra. If they do have something like Lyra, then it's a much easier decision to, to come back and say, Hey, and talking to their customer success manager on our side.
Smita Das: This is something that's really interesting for me and has been another piece on top of everything that you do. I want you to also add this and really make it a tight, comprehensive ecosystem.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I agree. And for those listening, I assume they would want to look at both medical data, but I think the biggest piece too is pharmacy data as well, right?
Smita Das: Absolutely. Yes. So, yeah, and I mentioned medical just to say you don't just have to look at behavioral health care spend. You can look at it all because I think you mentioned earlier that people with some of these more complex needs, they may also have higher spend or other conditions. And so that's where partnering, for example, with collective is really helpful because then we're really approaching all of it together.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yeah. So, one thing, we're talking about employer groups that have benefit plans, but I have to think about the, a few minutes ago, we were just talking about getting the word out to help anybody. I would love for you to at least share a resource for anyone listening that may not be on a group benefits plan.
Sasha Yamaguchi: They're on an individual plan. They're self employed, whatever it may be. But I feel like I would love to share any resource that you would recommend for anybody listening that's like, this sounds great, but I don't have this.
Smita Das: Yeah, so there are some government based resources and some of them are actually really helpful.
Smita Das: So, one is the SAMHSA, their treatment locator and SAMHSA is, you know, when I say that we're doing Basic things according to evidence base. We do draw a lot on guidelines and recommendations from these government organizations. So SAMHSA stands for the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, S A M H S A, and they have a treatment locator, which is helpful if somebody doesn't have some other resource.
Smita Das: The other resource, Talked a lot about substance use disorders, particularly alcohol use disorders. The other resource I love pointing patients to, but also clinicians, because it's got just a ton of great information, is a website called Rethinking Drinking, and that's a website from the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism.
Smita Das: And so that is, if we're thinking about The National Institute of Health, it is the group that is responsible for studying and setting the guidelines and research for alcohol. So NIAAA, N I A A A, Rethinking Drinking is the website. If you just do an internet search for Rethinking Drinking, it'll probably be the first to hit.
Smita Das: And it really helps somebody, even if they're not ready to make a change, just learn about their use patterns, learn a little bit more. It's just really helpful. It's very much geared towards the individual consumer and help kind of move some of that, the, get the cog, you know, the cogs moving in terms of, of the, we talk a lot about stages of change or where somebody's motivation is.
Smita Das: And so helping empower an individual to just learn more about their alcohol patterns and to consider options.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Thank you for sharing all of that because I think that's important for anybody that may not have a full program through their group benefits plan. So I wanted to make sure we put out some resources.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I don't know how you remember all of those acronyms. And I'm sure there are many, many that you need to know and be able to reference.
Smita Das: It's a lovely thing about having worked in the government. You get used to it to using acronyms a whole lot.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yeah. Same in the healthcare industry, I feel. I appreciate this conversation so much.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Again, coming off of May, Mental Health Awareness Month, but obviously such an important topic, so I'm so thankful for your time. Please share with everybody where they can find more information on Lyra Health or anything else that you would love to point them to online.
Smita Das: Yeah, so it's very easy, it's just LyraHealth.com
Smita Das: and from there you can go to any of our pages you can learn about. I've been mentioning things like our clinical bar, also a lot of, we have 16 peer review studies and that number is just growing of actual outcomes as opposed to, Projected outcomes. We actually can report out on how well our members do.
Smita Das: So a lot of that kind of nerdy science stuff is linked out of that main page, and there's just a wealth of information there.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Great. Well, thank you, Dr. Das. This was great. Appreciate your time. And I know the audience is going to learn so much from this conversation. So thank you.
Smita Das: Thank you for making the space for this conversation.
Smita Das: Appreciate it.
Producer: This podcast is brought to you by Collective Health. A health benefit solution that guides employees toward healthier lives and companies toward healthier bottom lines. Check us out at CollectiveHealth.com