This episode features an interview with Michael Levin, Co-founder of Ideon, an infrastructure platform powering digital experiences in health insurance and employee benefits. Michael has over 20 years of experience driving innovation and bringing quality and choice to new markets. Prior to Ideon, he served as the Chief Operating Officer for Affiliates Risk Management Services (ARMS), where he recruited a new leadership team, transformed and upgraded financial operations and audit systems, and led business plan development. He also founded Media Sciences, Inc., bringing quality, value, and choice to the printer supply market. In this episode, Sasha and Michael discuss building infrastructure in the benefits space, the importance of decision support tools, and the trend of same-day benefits.
This episode features an interview with Michael Levin, Co-founder of Ideon, an infrastructure platform powering digital experiences in health insurance and employee benefits. Michael has over 20 years of experience driving innovation and bringing quality and choice to new markets. Prior to Ideon, he served as the Chief Operating Officer for Affiliates Risk Management Services (ARMS), where he recruited a new leadership team, transformed and upgraded financial operations and audit systems, and led business plan development. He also founded Media Sciences, Inc., bringing quality, value, and choice to the printer supply market.
In this episode, Sasha and Michael discuss building infrastructure in the benefits space, the importance of decision support tools, and the trend of same-day benefits.
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“There's so much that we can do around creating better member experience. We can get coverage in place in days, not weeks, so that you don't get to the doctor and have a coverage issue. Or if you were to leave a company and you need to avail yourself of COBRA, that it is seamless as opposed to a three week or four week set of challenges. You should be able to understand the differences in real language between plans and understand the tradeoffs of making an investment in one place versus another. There's so much we can do around education, around transparency, ‘Is this the right doctor based on their experience, their training, their outcomes for me?’ Transparency and pharmacy and costs associated with that. But, there's so many areas of the member journey that could be improved from enrollment all the way through, through using these products. The good news is there's a lot of really great companies led by really great founders who are passionate about solving these problems and they will be solved. There's a lot of activity happening, so this is being solved for today. All of us have a good reason to expect great outcomes over the coming years.” – Michael Levin
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Episode Timestamps:
*(00:57): Michael explains Ideon
*(06:40): The importance of infrastructure in the benefits space
*(13:52): The power of accurate provider data
*(19:10): Michael dives into decision support tools
*(23:53): How we can improve member experience
*(26:40): Michael shares his favorite healthcare story
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Links:
Connect with Michael on LinkedIn
Connect with Sasha on LinkedIn
Learn more about Collective Health
Sasha Yamaguchi: Let's face it, healthcare is confusing and costs are continuing to rise. Employers are looking for ways to improve the health of their people and their bottom lines. The good news? Many leading companies are leveraging self funded health plans and innovative benefit solutions to do just that. Learn from some of the best minds in employee health.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Welcome to the Benefits Playbook, Strategies for Self-Funded Health Plans. I'm your host, Sashi Yamaguchi, Commercial Leader at Collective Health. Hello everyone. On today's episode, we are joined by Mike Levin. Mike is the co founder of Ideon, a company that connects health insurance and employee benefits carriers to HR and benefits administration platforms.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Thank you so much for being here with us today, Mike.
Michael Levin: Hi, Sasha. I'm pleased to be here.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Great. So let's start. I would love to hear a little bit about the company. Why did you start the company and what does Ideon do? How does it connect with employers, brokers, and consultants?
Michael Levin: consultants? So we founded the company as Vericred.
Michael Levin: We rebranded a couple of years ago, but Vericred was founded to solve a problem in the healthcare space called credentialing, which is a very inefficient process that healthcare providers have to go through with each of the different entities with whom they're associated. And like any agile early stage company, we wanted to build something small.
Michael Levin: So we started around this data set called provider network. data, which is which providers participate in which health plan and dental networks. So that's where we started. And from that starting place, we just simply went down a different path and never created a credentialing company. Instead it evolved into something really much more.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That's great. I know how important that is in our industry. And I want to talk a little bit about that in a few minutes, but before I do, can you share with everyone the size of Ideon?
Michael Levin: Sure. Ideon is about 85 people. They are headquartered in New York City, to the extent that means anything. About 40 percent of the team is in New York.
Michael Levin: There's another concentration out in Omaha, and then the rest of the team is dispersed throughout the United States.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Okay, great. And one thing I wanted to ask about that is, it is on the smaller size and our audience, a lot of what we talk about on this podcast is employers of all sizes being able to look at different funding options.
Sasha Yamaguchi: So, I would love to hear just your transition and how has Ideon evolved over the last couple of years in the funding mechanisms that they've used for their own health plan?
Michael Levin: Sure. So, Ideon offers really rich benefits, particularly for its company size, to its team to attract and retain. And for a number of years, because of its size and headquartered in New York, for major medical, Ideon had ACA plans, small group ACA plans, and the company incurred kind of the annual 4 10 percent annual increases, and importantly, it pays 100 percent of the individual and for family members, so it's a very rich coverage.
Michael Levin: But that 4 10 percent compounds and compounds, and the company just continued to experience those increases, and it gets to this point of being untenable. So this past cycle, this past year, The company looked at different options. It looked at these things called ICRAs, and it also looked at level funded solutions.
Michael Levin: And in one of those rare instances in the space, the company ended up adopting a level funded plan with better benefits. meaning lower co pays and lower deductibles, added certain coverages, employer sponsored coverages, added voluntary coverages, and net net was able to save the company dollars. So it was really a unique opportunity.
Michael Levin: I don't know whether that will be replicable or be able to be replicated again in the future, but it was one of those wins for everyone, for the company, for the team, and everyone associated with it. So it's a company.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I think that's amazing to be able to change funding options and as an employer, own your plan and make changes.
Sasha Yamaguchi: But then on top of that, to have the benefits be even richer and to save money, I think is super important. And I love that you're hitting on that because a lot of employers years ago would think. Level funded, self funded, all of these alternative options were really for the jumbo to large employers. And I love hearing about a smaller employer that really takes care of their employees, has rich benefits, and is able to also kind of change and move through the spectrum of different funding options.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I think that's great.
Michael Levin: And as the employer, you get deep information about utilization. You understand where specialty drugs are being deployed, where there's high utilization, and all of that information effectively claims information can help with the next cycle and evaluating what the right plan design or designs are for the company going forward.
Michael Levin: So it's not only the product at the time, but it's the insights and the data that flows from having that kind of product level funded or, uh, self funded that is, uh, incredibly valuable.
Sasha Yamaguchi: No, that's a great point. I mean, everyone always wants data and if you're not on a certain funding type, you get no data or very limited.
Sasha Yamaguchi: So I love that you've shared that with everyone because I think it's so important, especially for companies that are growing, right? You want to know about your plan as much as you can if your employee size is growing.
Michael Levin: Yeah, absolutely. And again, it allows you to tailor the plan and the benefits to meet the needs of the company.
Michael Levin: Otherwise you're flying blind. You are essentially as the employer picking what you think would be a good fit. Plan or plans instead of what really matches the needs of your employee base. Right.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Well, and for our brokers and consultants listening in, they of course are a huge part of this and they help you and other employers look at those different options and know the benefits and what they're able to get in, in moving to those funding options.
Sasha Yamaguchi: So. Speaking of plans, I think switching gears a little bit. I would love to talk about tools and infrastructure. I know Ideon plays a big part in this. I would love for you to share a little bit of what problems or challenges Ideon or that type of company is trying to solve, but then also just in general, why is infrastructure so important in our industry in the healthcare space?
Michael Levin: So I'll go back to that founding story. So we started down the path of being a credentialing company, started with this data set called provider network data and started to approach some potential customers about leveraging that data. And one of the use cases is what we refer to as shop by doc. I want to find a health plan in which my preferred doctor and hospitals participates in.
Michael Levin: And we approached a number of folks who were then in the AC, ACA market, most of whom are still there and said, Hey, you know, we've got this data, we can help you power this function. And what we heard from them is that's great. I mean, that's really important, but we're having trouble getting all these plans and rates and all the business rules into our platform.
Michael Levin: Can you help us do that? So, we started to do that, and it was not too long after that, that we recognized that these problems, that the provider data and plan data were symptomatic of what I refer to as data liquidity, or lack of data liquidity in the space. And that's the right data at the right place at the right time.
Michael Levin: And the health insurance and employee benefit space as a whole has had, and today really still has, really poor connectivity, lax standards. So... All of that complexity does a couple of things. It creates great inefficiencies. It inhibits transparency, which is so important. And it even inhibits innovation.
Michael Levin: So quickly, you know, at our founding or a year or so into our founding, we became an infrastructure company that didn't build anything user facing that was strictly about providing the pipes, the. connectivity and data translation between all of these parties. And that's not a new business model across industries.
Michael Levin: Travel has it, ad tech has it, finance has it, but the health insurance and employee benefit space has lacked that. So Ideon and just a couple of others are building infrastructure to solve that problem so that Carriers can focus on building great products and managing risks, and tech companies can focus on creating great user experiences, meaning employee and employer and broker experiences, and none of them have to be thinking about, well, how do I pass data to one another?
Sasha Yamaguchi: Wow, I love that. And I love how you just said you are focused on something so that those other companies can work on what they're best at as well. So I think being able to provide that support is huge. I have a couple of topics I feel tied to that where It makes such a big difference in how the employers have an experience in health care with their carrier, their TPA and members, and I think having tools and that infrastructure that you guys build is so important.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I think the first So, that I thought I had is just groups that changed to a new administrator, just the setup, or maybe it's a new division, or they've bought a company and we know how important it is to have things set up correctly, but also maybe quick, right? And efficient. So, knowing that. If there's a way to get things built, and the pipes are there, but get the information in and all of that, it leads to a better experience for the member.
Sasha Yamaguchi: What are your thoughts on that?
Michael Levin: Oh yeah, I mean, quick and efficient are not two adjectives that I would use in the health insurance and employee benefits space. And it's, it's what Ideon is trying to enable. Group setup, talk about moving to a new benefits provider. Very typical is an eight to 12 week setup time to get that group set up.
Michael Levin: That has all sorts of downstream effects. It limits when you can make decisions. If you're trying to change January 1, that means you have to make a decision what effective October 1st, instead of in mid January. And most folks aren't thinking about it 90, 120, 180 days in advance. And then move to the individual level, you add a new team member.
Michael Levin: It can take weeks to set that new team member up. And that kind of undermines the intent of benefits, right? You want to create this great experience, deliver value to your new teammates. And if someone's joined your company, signs up for benefits, and two days later has to go to the doctor and they find out that they don't have coverage or the coverage isn't in place, that takes the shine off the apple.
Michael Levin: So part of what. This infrastructure is enabling our very shortened periods of time. Groups set up in days, not weeks, individuals being set up in a day. And in fact, one of the recurring themes that we're starting to hear out of large employers is kind of this notion of same day benefits. So when someone joins a company, they want to be able to use those benefits.
Michael Levin: And I mean, this has really been unheard of, but it shouldn't be. I mean, why shouldn't you be able to go on that portal, go on your Benadmin, sign up and have them in force later in the day or at least the next day? And still the industry is. Kind of miles from that, but the pieces are coming together to solve for that.
Michael Levin: And it's, that's really exciting for everyone in the value chain, for the employees, the employers, brokers, and even the benefits providers themselves.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Wow. And I have two thoughts on that because I could not agree with you more. For a member, I mean, really, if we got to the point where an HR leader can go in and get a member same day setup, that would be incredible.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That would be a great member experience and to be able to get there would be amazing. And then I think you made a point that hit home for me is a lot of employers, whether they're small, medium, or large. They go through a couple of months of looking at different options, and then they get to a point where they feel like it's not enough time to do it well, or they've run out of time, and yet they really want to make this change, and it's to the benefit of their members and employees, but then they feel there's not enough lead time.
Sasha Yamaguchi: And I think everything you said is so important, because if it can be set up in a way where an employer can make a quote unquote last minute decision, then they won't have to put it off an entire 12 months.
Michael Levin: Right. And there's no reason that that kind of experience cannot be the norm within our space.
Michael Levin: And again, the pieces are starting to fall in place to drive that type of experience.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That would be great. Another, I think, a big piece of that and access for the members is provider data. I know you feel very passionate about this, so I'd love to talk a little bit about, obviously, especially when employees are joining a new plan, but providers that are in network versus out of network, it's extremely important for that data to be accurate so there's no frustration and they really know who they have access to.
Sasha Yamaguchi: What work have you done around this? over the years, and what are your thoughts on just how we can continue to chip away at getting that data as accurate and up to date as possible?
Michael Levin: Yeah, the accuracy of the data is a huge industry wide challenge. So, first of all, the importance is very high. These networks Provider networks are increasingly narrow, and if you go outside of a network, you may have no coverage, or you may have reduced coverage.
Michael Levin: So finding a provider in your network or plan in which your providers participate is super important. So then it gets to the accuracy of the data, and the question is, who's responsible for that? Because if a doctor is showing in network and they're not, that can obviously create a problem. For the most part today, the regulators are looking at the carriers and saying you're responsible for keeping these networks current.
Michael Levin: The problem is the carriers are dependent upon the providers themselves, the doctors and other types of providers. to keep that information up to date. And a doctor, for example, can choose to not accept new patients one day and accept new patients the next day and never have updated the carriers as to their decision.
Michael Levin: So it's really a thankless problem, which there is no clear solution for. Going back to, again, that founding story, one of the areas that I have advocated for is a centralized Credentialing entity where not only that kind of information, but other provider information could be kept and managed because it would solve a lot of problems.
Michael Levin: It would allow doctors and other providers to go to one place to update their information across a whole slew of different entities, but today it's a. Patchwork quilt of license boards, certification boards, carriers, you name it, and there's no clear process or clear way to materially improve that. So what do you do?
Michael Levin: Well, still the tools are important, finding a plan of what your doctor's important. So the important thing is once you've made a decision, call the doctor. Call the hospital, confirm, and then move forward. And it won't always be like this, and steps are being made to make it better, but that is the reality today.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yeah, I like to say trust but verify is my motto. Trust that it's accurate but go verify. And it's funny as you say this, it's so true, right? I know it's been... Worked on over the years with all the technology we have, I'm sure soon it will be figured out at some point, but I feel like along the provider network line, it makes me think of all of the different point solutions out there because employers are Bringing together different point solutions that provide members access to services.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Obviously, I'm seeing it a lot as almost like a supplemental network, like behavioral, for example. So, I'd love to hear a little bit about maybe how Ideon has worked with point solutions, working with maybe the data that they're able to provide, and just your general thoughts around kind of that landscape of the growing point solutions that we're starting to see.
Michael Levin: Well, those point solutions are arising because healthcare is complex and we all have different needs or all different phases of life. We have different health and other challenges and opportunities. So there are a lot of problems to be solved and products to solve for them. So go back to the world of employee benefits.
Michael Levin: I'm a big fan of marketplaces and a big fan of moving to a defined contribution from a to find benefit. In other words, giving your team members a bucket of money that they can allocate as they see fit. They can spend more on medical than they do on, for example, their 401k, or they can buy accident, or they can enroll in disease management.
Michael Levin: But creating or enabling access to all those different point solutions is a big. connectivity and data problem. And part of what Ideon is solving for is essentially democratizing that connectivity so that your HRAS or your Ben Admin solution can deliver all of these different point solutions to you as the employee from which to choose.
Michael Levin: Today, connectivity can be a gating factor, and there could be a great solution that a segment of your employee base may want to utilize, but just getting data back and forth can prevent that from happening. Again, that's part of what Ideon is solving for today.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That reminds me also of decision support tools.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I think it's so important as members or employees or dependents go to enroll, some employers have multiple options, right? So have you worked with or seen anything work really well with a decision support tool? And just why? It's important to have those and allow members to pick the right plan for them.
Michael Levin: Sure. Well, look, benefits are complex. The language is foreign. Deductibles and MOOPs and co pays and what does all that mean? And then you bring in networks and whether your drugs are covered. And, you know, you put all that together and health insurance. And then put that in the greater context that health insurance and broader employee benefits are financial protection products, right?
Michael Levin: And without health insurance, our medical bills are leading cause of bankruptcy. The, the intent of these products are to financially protect. Needs differ, family makeups are different. So how do you, as an individual, sort through all the different options? You talked about multiple plans. Well, how do you choose between those plans?
Michael Levin: And well. Should I buy that more expensive plan or a less expensive plan and augment it with accident and critical illness or disability? Maybe I need more life insurance or put more into my retirement. These are very, very complex decisions that folks are Faced with once a year, so it's not like they're seeing it every day and studying it every day.
Michael Levin: So enter decision support and the intent here is to walk you through that, that process. And so I'm a huge fan of decision support. It can range from simply what I call the earlier shop by doc all the way through to now we're starting to see the first kind of AI led experiences that are asking a lot of questions and helping you as the individual sort through what the right basket or selection of benefits is.
Michael Levin: And ultimately, that means that we as individuals are going to be Making better investments in our financial future, buying the right products, spending less where we should be, and more perhaps where we haven't been in the past. And that's good for, again, everyone in the ecosystem.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That's great. And it makes me think of sometimes you have to spend a little more to create that.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Good environment for employees and it will pay dividends. It will work out and possibly help the plan and of course, help them have a better experience or a healthy experience. So I think that's important. Talking on that a bit, I was listening as you were saying, choosing disability and choosing 401k and all of those things, I think.
Sasha Yamaguchi: What's hard is as individuals go into their careers and they have their first experience having their first health plan and they're the younger population, what advice do you give them as they think about their health and their overall benefits program? Any advice that you would give them as they go into healthcare?
Michael Levin: Yeah. I mean, look, Ideana is a company skewed younger. A lot of folks right out of school or in the kind of the first third of their career. So saving for retirement, participation in 401k, things like disability and life insurance. are on top of mind. And I, as a leader, felt a responsibility to elevate those types of coverages of participation in 401k, disability, not only short term, but long term disability and life insurance.
Michael Levin: Because if you start to put those building blocks in early, not only do you protect yourself if you're in a skiing accident and you lose access to your livelihood or whatever, but it also sets you up well for later in life. So That was my philosophy, and I think increasingly, this is the role of decision support is to help educate individuals across all ages about what they should be thinking about, because the reality is, unless they're having dinner table conversation with others on the topic, they probably aren't thinking about some of these things that aren't fun to think about.
Sasha Yamaguchi: No, I definitely don't think they are. So, I think helping them is great. And of course, as that population hopefully stays within a company, right? It just helps as they go through and they age. So, I guess, kind of wrapping up, we talked about data provider network being important, members getting access quicker than ever.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I know this is a broad question, but I would love to hear any final thoughts on, What do you feel about member experience, and is there anything as an industry we can work to improve the overall experience that employees and dependents have as they're accessing their benefits?
Michael Levin: Well, I mean, the sad truth is that benefits are often the second largest line item in a company's P& L after direct payroll costs, so it's a Huge cost, and satisfaction with benefits has been incredibly low.
Michael Levin: Picking health insurance has been likened to sitting in the middle seat of an airplane or going to the dentist. But even more advanced solutions aren't driving a lot of member satisfaction. And again, it's because it's complex and it's foreign. So there's so much that we can do around creating better member experience.
Michael Levin: You know, we can get coverage in place in days, not weeks, so that You don't get to the doctor and have a coverage issue, or if you were to leave a company and you need to avail yourselves of Cobra, that it is seamless as opposed to a three week or four week set of challenges. You should be able to understand the differences in real language.
Michael Levin: between plans and understand the trade offs of making an investment in one place versus another. So there's so much we can do around education, around transparency. Is this the right doctor based on their experience, their training, their outcomes for me? Transparency in pharmacy and costs associated with that.
Michael Levin: But there's so many areas of the member journey that could be improved from enrollment all the way through, through using these products. And the good news is there's a lot of really great companies led by really great founders who are passionate about solving these problems and they will be solved.
Michael Levin: There's a lot of activity happening. So this is being solved for today and all of us have a good reason to expect great outcomes over the coming years.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I love that, and I love that we're ending on that note, because I agree, I feel like it's getting more attention than ever. Companies are being created to create a great member experience, help employers, help HR teams, and I think there's a lot of work being done from all different angles to
Sasha Yamaguchi: really make healthcare enjoyable, easy to access, make it a good experience, it does not have to be negative. I love to hear you say that because I feel like obviously I'm seeing the same and hearing the same and it's exciting to watch it change over the years.
Michael Levin: Healthcare moves slowly, but it's moving forward and it's moving in the right direction.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Yes, I love it. Well, that was great. Just to end out, I always laugh because a lot of us in healthcare, you'll be at a dinner party or you'll be on an airplane. People would say, what do you do? What industry are you in? And a lot of people will either share that they're in healthcare or they won't, because you never know where the conversation will go.
Sasha Yamaguchi: But I always love to hear a personal story of maybe, a situation you are in where you shared what you do, what industry you're in. And did you have any situations where it was either a really great conversation or maybe a little awkward?
Michael Levin: Well, when you talk about infrastructure or middleware for health insurance employee benefits, unless you're in the space, you don't get it.
Michael Levin: But years and years ago, early in our founding, I was speaking with an attorney that represented the company. Well, we did, and, uh, her sister's. Brother in law, or I forget the exact relationship, but multiple steps away from this attorney was needing to find new insurance. So she connected with me. And now every year, without fail, I get a call from this guy and I have to walk him through his options.
Michael Levin: Seven years later, I'm his personal consultant. So I guess that's the cross that you bear when you're in this space, but I've appreciated her support early on and I'm happy to do that.
Sasha Yamaguchi: That's great. Yeah, I love that and it reminds me years ago, I, I live next door to someone who worked for a cosmetics company and I would joke with her.
Sasha Yamaguchi: She would always bring me samples and exciting product and I'd say, all I can offer you is to help you read your EOB and call your doctor. It's not as exciting as cosmetics, but I'm here for you. So that's great. Well, I am so glad we had you today. I know you and I have had a couple of conversations and gotten to know each other and the company and yeah.
Sasha Yamaguchi: I appreciate so much the work you've done in our industry. And please share with everybody if they want to find you on LinkedIn or online, let them know where to track you down. And today was great. I appreciate you being here.
Michael Levin: Well, thank you, Sasha. It's been fun. I really enjoyed the time together. You know, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Michael Levin: I'm active there. I respond to DMs. So I'd love to continue the dialogue with anyone who's interested in the space of which I am so passionate about. Great.
Sasha Yamaguchi: Thank you, Mike. Thank you so much.
Michael Levin: Thank you.
Producer: This podcast is brought to you by Collective Health, a health benefits solution that guides employees toward healthier lives and companies toward healthier bottom lines.
Producer: Check us out at collectivehealth.com.