77% of employees report burnout, but for benefits professionals, it's a silent crisis. They spend every day taking care of everyone else while quietly running on empty themselves. In this episode, Jennifer Weinstein, Vice President of Benefits at Albertsons Companies and author of the new book Benefits Burnout: How to Fall (Back) in Love with Your Employee Benefits Career, joins host Dane Thorwaldson to unpack why the benefits profession has become a perfect storm for exhaustion. With over two decades in the field, Jennifer shares what led her to write publicly about a topic most people only discuss behind closed doors, why "multiple hat syndrome" and healthcare headwinds are pushing benefits professionals to their limits, and practical ways leaders and individuals can reconnect with their purpose, set boundaries, and find their way back to loving the work.
77% of employees report burnout, but for benefits professionals, it's a silent crisis. They spend every day taking care of everyone else while quietly running on empty themselves.
In this episode, Jennifer Weinstein, Vice President of Benefits at Albertsons Companies and author of the new book Benefits Burnout: How to Fall (Back) in Love with Your Employee Benefits Career, joins host Dane Thorwaldson to unpack why the benefits profession has become a perfect storm for exhaustion. With over two decades in the field, Jennifer shares what led her to write publicly about a topic most people only discuss behind closed doors, why "multiple hat syndrome" and healthcare headwinds are pushing benefits professionals to their limits, and practical ways leaders and individuals can reconnect with their purpose, set boundaries, and find their way back to loving the work.
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“ For people who are really struggling right now in this industry, in this career, if on those days you can think back to what your true purpose is, which is helping others, if you can remember what your overall purpose is, those conversations that are frustrating, they're going to be forgotten in a week. But how you go about helping people, you have a purpose of being here and the impact that you have on others, I think most benefits people may not even realize.” – Jennifer Weinstein
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Episode Timestamps:
*(1:11): Jennifer's career path: how she fell into the world of benefits
*(7:16): What benefits burnout actually looks like
*(20:12): Early warning signs of burnout to watch for
*(27:09): Falling back in love with the work: pathways and mindset shifts
*(42:38): How to tell a rough patch from real burnout
*(48:39): What Jennifer hopes readers take away from the book
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Links:
Connect with Jennifer Weinstein on LinkedIn
Benefits Burnout: How to fall (back) in love with your employee benefits career
Connect with Dane Thorwaldson on LinkedIn
Learn more about Collective Health
Learn more about Caspian Studios
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The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Collective Health, its affiliates, sponsors, employees, or customers. This podcast is not intended as legal, medical, or financial advice. If you have any questions or concerns in these areas, please consult with a qualified professional.
[00:00:00] Dane Thorwaldson: Healthcare costs are rising, benefits are confusing, and the system doesn't always work for the people who need it most. But it doesn't have to be that way. Smart employers and their consultants are flipping the script, cutting costs, making things simpler, and creating a health benefits experience their people love.
[00:00:23] Dane Thorwaldson: Welcome to the Benefits Playbook. I'm your host, Dane Thorwaltsson, and in each episode, we uncover the bold strategies that are rewriting the rules of self-funded health benefits. I'm so excited to introduce to you Jennifer Weinstein, who is the vice president of benefits for Albertsons Companies, and the author of a new book called Benefits Burnout: How to Fall Back in Love with Your Employee Benefits Career.
[00:00:49] Dane Thorwaldson: So much good stuff to talk about here today. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:00:54] Jennifer Weinstein: Well, thank you for having me, Dane. I really look forward to this conversation.
[00:00:58] Dane Thorwaldson: Likewise. It's fun to, to chat with a, a fellow benefits devotee who's been doing this for a long time. And Jennifer, you've been in this world for over two decades working with large companies and leading benefits.
[00:01:11] Dane Thorwaldson: So for those listeners who might not know you yet, why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got here, about your career path?
[00:01:19] Jennifer Weinstein: Well, I think many people might resonate with this. I kind of fell into the world of benefits. I did want to move into the HR world. In fact, I went to graduate school to get my master's in human resources.
[00:01:29] Jennifer Weinstein: But I thought I wanted to be more on the HR business partner track, more on the generalist HR track. And in one of my first, you know, big girl jobs, I was in an HR generalist role, and they were looking for a leader to lead the benefits function, and a leader within the organization had seen some of the work that I had done in the HR space and asked me to lead the benefits function.
[00:01:49] Jennifer Weinstein: I was very young, really had no idea at all what I was doing. Knew a little bit about benefits, but nowhere near what I know today. And at that time, the company was taking one hundred and fifty fully insured medical plans, which I didn't even know what fully insured meant at that time, to what they were calling one self-funded plan.
[00:02:07] Jennifer Weinstein: And they wanted a leader to come in and lead that project and to also lead the benefits team and basically create a benefits function for the company. And so that's how I got into the world of benefits. But I stayed in it for the last twenty plus years because I realized how amazing this career could be, how I could use my creativity, and also, most importantly, how I could help employees every day with their health issues and do that through our benefits programs.
[00:02:33] Dane Thorwaldson: Holy smokes, Jennifer. So your, your first job was consolidating a bunch of fully insured plans into a large self-funded plan. That was your entree into benefits.
[00:02:42] Jennifer Weinstein: It was. And it, you know, it sounds kind of funny today because, of course, who doesn't do that? But at that time, that was a new concept.
[00:02:49] Dane Thorwaldson: Well, sure. I think anyone who's, who's come up through the ranks in HR and just dipped their toe into benefits, that's, that's quite an awakening.
[00:02:56] Dane Thorwaldson: So I have found out that, that you're very good at your job. I knew that already. But you thought I might not find it, but I did see that Employee Benefits News even named you the Benefits Professional of the Year back in twenty thirteen. And so you've been doing this a long time, and you've been doing it well for a long time.
[00:03:15] Dane Thorwaldson: And so we're so excited to have you here today. It's funny, I was going to ask you a question around, you know, when you were twenty-five, what would you have wanted to write a book about? But now that I know that you were a master's in HR at that time, then it might not have been all that different, but than-
[00:03:30] Dane Thorwaldson: than the book that you wrote today. But I am curious because I, I wanna spend a, a, a good amount of time talking about the book that you've written recently, Benefits Burnout. So, so maybe my, my first question around that is, is what made now, today, the right moment for this book?
[00:03:48] Jennifer Weinstein: So it's very interesting.
[00:03:49] Jennifer Weinstein: If, if anyone has followed me, you might know that I've written on LinkedIn probably for 15 years at this point. I typically write about benefits and what it's like to work in this profession. I write about creative endeavors that I have, like the cow paintings behind me and baking. And about 10 years ago now, I actually wrote an article on LinkedIn called Death by Benefits, and it was this idea about how difficult this job really is, and no one really fully understands what goes on in the world of a benefits professional.
[00:04:17] Jennifer Weinstein: Then flash forward to last year, I was presenting at a conference on how to create a benefit strategy. Wasn't really talking about the idea of burnout, but I did include burnout a little bit in that presentation. Well, I clearly struck a nerve at that conference because after I did that presentation, people were coming up to me afterward, all afternoon, through the cocktail hour, through the dinner, even into the next day, saying, "Hey, you talked about this topic that, you know, we really only talk about in peer-to-peer conversations, kind of behind the scenes.
[00:04:46] Jennifer Weinstein: No one really has talked about the idea that we're burnt out." So many of us who have been in benefits for a long time are wondering, "What are we doing in this career? Can we continue to do this for another year? Can we go through one more open enrollment period?" In fact, one lady at that conference came up to me and said she had been doing benefits for just 10 years, which is a long time, and she wasn't sure if she could do this career anymore.
[00:05:09] Jennifer Weinstein: She had so many pressures on her within her organization, including all of her life pressures, that she was thinking about, like, moving to a farm and raising sheep. Like, she was basically wondering, is there a life outside of the world of benefits that she could move to because she really wasn't sure if she could do it another day.
[00:05:28] Jennifer Weinstein: And I thought, "Wow, this is really prevalent." I was hearing it in other peer groups that I was in. I was hearing it in one-on-one peer conversations. I came back from that conference, and I wrote an article on LinkedIn just about this topic, about benefits burnout, and it was one of my most viewed posts, one of my most commented on posts, really went viral.
[00:05:47] Jennifer Weinstein: And then soon after that, I wrote about this topic of what I call multiple hat syndrome, which I know we're going to get into today, about how many responsibilities a benefits person has, and that blew up and went viral as well. And I've always wanted to write a book, and I thought this was a perfect time to write about this topic that so many people are feeling, but not necessarily talking about, because they're not sure who to turn to, to talk to about it.
[00:06:12] Jennifer Weinstein: And I thought this book, or at least my hope for this book, was that this would open up a conversation publicly that so many people are talking about in private
[00:06:21] Dane Thorwaldson: Oh my goodness, Jennifer, my head is swirling with so many questions that I want to ask you all at the same time. But I will stick to some sort of structure here so that we can have a, a, a good conversation.
[00:06:32] Dane Thorwaldson: But wow, you put so much into that response, and I am so happy that you took that step. It sounds like you really did strike a nerve, and we're bringing something to the forefront and into the main dialogue that perhaps is still somewhat stigmatized, or at the very least only talked about in private. So it is a pandemic.
[00:06:53] Dane Thorwaldson: I think Deloitte is showing seventy-seven percent of people have experienced burnout in their current career. The American Psychological Association says two-thirds, sixty-seven percent, have experienced burnout symptoms in the past month at their job. So struck a nerve is absolutely the right way of putting this.
[00:07:14] Dane Thorwaldson: So to kind of break it down a little bit, what, what is benefits burnout in practice? What does that look like day to day for someone in the benefits profession?
[00:07:24] Jennifer Weinstein: To give you a little bit of background before I answer this, when I think about benefits people, one of the things that I think they do really well at is not sharing what goes on in their day-to-day life.
[00:07:34] Jennifer Weinstein: They keep their heads down. They do a great job. They have so many things on their plate throughout the day, and at the forefront of what they're doing is helping other people. A lot of times they forget to help themselves. And for burnout in a benefits person, I think it often goes unnoticed because they're so focused on doing an excellent job, they're so focused on their customer, which is their employee, and making sure that person is taken care of, that they don't really take time to think about filling up their own cup and making sure, you know, like the old adage goes, right, you've got to put your oxygen mask on first before helping others on the plane.
[00:08:11] Jennifer Weinstein: It's true in the benefits space as well. We often don't think about putting our own oxygen mask on first before helping others because we're so concerned with just helping others. So I think often benefits burnout, in the benefits space particularly, goes unnoticed because people are suffering in silence.
[00:08:26] Jennifer Weinstein: And that has been very clear to me since writing this book, and the number of people that have reached out to me to tell me their own stories, that they truly feel like they have been suffering in silence and not had a place to turn to or any kind of outlet to share what they are experiencing or feeling because they really felt that they were alone.
[00:08:44] Dane Thorwaldson: It sounds like there are a lot of people who are experiencing this. Why? Why in benefits? What about benefits careers right now are leading to burnout?
[00:08:54] Jennifer Weinstein: I think it's almost a perfect storm. So if you think about what's happening in the benefits space right now, first of all, at the forefront is healthcare headwinds.
[00:09:02] Jennifer Weinstein: For many employers, they're experiencing double-digit trend increases that we have not seen in ten, 15, some, some even say 20 years. And so in the past, benefits people would look at their list of levers every year. They'd figure out their benefit strategy, how to counteract that trend increase. But when you're looking at double-digit trend increases, you're also looking at the past few years where benefits people have also had to pull many of those levers.
[00:09:28] Jennifer Weinstein: You're almost left with no more tools in the toolbox. You're looking at these healthcare headwinds, which almost, in my opinion, looks like this gigantic boulder that you're trying to push up a hill. And then you're trying to figure out which tools in the toolbox, which levers do I pull? Is there a point solution I can bring in to try to counteract this gigantic boulder that just keeps growing in cost that's going up this hill?
[00:09:52] Jennifer Weinstein: And it feels like everything that you're doing right now is just chipping away at that boulder, but you're actually not removing the boulder, and it just keeps getting bigger, and there's more and more pressure put on benefits people. Also, at the same time, if you think 10, 15 years ago, we didn't have the number of point solutions and benefit vendors that we have in this space today.
[00:10:11] Jennifer Weinstein: I think right now is an amazing time to be in benefits because of the innovation and ingenuity going on in this space. There are so many smart people doing so many amazing things But at the same time, when you have thousands of benefit vendors and point solutions in this space, and you're the benefits person on the employer side, and you're trying to make sense of all of the noise that's out there right now, and what could you bring in to help you chip away at that boulder, eventually remove it, it just adds additional pressure onto your day job.
[00:10:41] Jennifer Weinstein: Oh, and then there's actually a life you probably have outside of your benefits role, and you don't know what's going on in that person's life as well and all the pressures that they have. All of these things are compounding right at the exact time when all eyes are on the benefits person to make sense of these healthcare headwinds.
[00:10:58] Jennifer Weinstein: And for many who have been in this role for a while, they're just saying, "I can't do anymore. I've got to figure out a different path for myself."
[00:11:06] Dane Thorwaldson: Everything that you just listed is overwhelming. You talk about the pressure, the, the rising costs. At least what I have seen in the industry is not only is there pressure and rising costs in your own world of benefits, but now all of the executives that used to just rubber stamp everything are sticking their noses into the benefits world and adding additional pressure and saying, "Well, why haven't you done this?"
[00:11:29] Dane Thorwaldson: And, "Have you ever tried this?" And so it used to be our domain, right? And, and so now that, that only adds to the pressure, I imagine, having all those executives in the mix.
[00:11:40] Jennifer Weinstein: It, it's very true because... And I don't think there's any malice or ill intent, right, behind those people asking those questions. But benefits is such a strange world.
[00:11:49] Jennifer Weinstein: It's a world full, full of weird acronyms, funny jargon. Most people don't want to think about benefits other than that once-a-year open enrollment opportunity when they're kind of forced to read their benefit materials, at least for a few minutes, and try to make a smart benefit choice or decision or use some of the tools and resources that you provide.
[00:12:07] Jennifer Weinstein: And when things are going okay, when trend is running at an acceptable amount and all of a sudden you don't have any high-cost claimants and things seem to be running along, no one's really talking to you, right? They're leaving you alone. But you get into the cost pressures that employers are facing today, and you add the healthcare headwinds and these double-digit trend increases and all of the other pressures that employers are facing right now, all of a sudden, all eyes are on the benefits person.
[00:12:33] Jennifer Weinstein: And if you have not been doing a good job of bringing your leadership along with you to share with them what you saw coming down that railroad track, it might catch a lot of people by surprise. And so now you're trying to also make up time for potentially what you should have been sharing in the last few years so that people aren't caught by surprise right now.
[00:12:53] Jennifer Weinstein: And if you haven't been sharing that story, and now all of a sudden you're experiencing this trend that you're trying to figure out how to solve, it can be very frustrating. I was on a call early this morning with a peer, and she was sharing that she has double-digit trend increases, and her employer's asking her to cut that by 75%.
[00:13:09] Jennifer Weinstein: And she's been doing this a long time, and she's wondering how in the world she's going to make that happen because, again, she feels like there's no more tools in the toolbox for her to use to, to make that trend decrease.
[00:13:20] Dane Thorwaldson: You are, you're painting a picture here, Jennifer. This is a, this is a tough world, and so I think burnout is a, is a real by-product of, of what you're describing.
[00:13:31] Dane Thorwaldson: And, and it's, it's tough. We do, we do that tightrope walk. You're exactly right. It's-- or it's like a, a goalie in soccer, where if you, you block a goal, it's like, "Yeah, well, that's your job." But as soon as you let one in, then it's, it's all eyes are on you. So I, I totally get that, and it's a, it's a tough place to be.
[00:13:48] Dane Thorwaldson: But we are professionals. We are the experts. And so what you brought up Which I think is wonderful, is the, the communication aspect and making sure that everyone knows what they should know throughout the process. In good times, in quiet times, in noisy times, in expensive times, they should, they should always leave those communication lines open.
[00:14:09] Dane Thorwaldson: So I think that's great. I, I do wanna ask you, you talked about the, the litany of different point solutions from the collective health angle. I understand we integrate with over two hundred different point solutions, and so I know firsthand how many there are out there. But through all of that, are there any that kind of rise to the top for you?
[00:14:31] Dane Thorwaldson: Is there anything that you're excited about? Doesn't have to be a specific one, but maybe a category of those program partners.
[00:14:38] Jennifer Weinstein: You know, what I'm excited about is something that I think that as benefit professionals, we fully haven't solved the problem for, and that's around communications. And if I think back to that first benefits job that we talked about at the beginning of this conversation, I feel like in many ways we're still talking about some of the same communication issues that we talked about in my very first benefits job, right?
[00:14:58] Jennifer Weinstein: It goes back to the idea that benefits is this confusing world of weird terms and jargon. And I think as benefit professionals, so many of us have tried so many different tactics to get people engaged more than just once a year during open enrollment. We want to get benefit communication to people at the time when they need it.
[00:15:16] Jennifer Weinstein: And oftentimes you have a program in place that might be exceptional for someone to what they need, but they don't remember it when they actually need it. And so we're trying all of these different tactics, but in many ways we're still doing the same thing that we did twenty years ago. So I'm hoping that over the course of the next ten years or maybe sooner, we figure out a way that we can actually do a better job of cracking that code on how to get to associates at the right place at the right time when they actually need the information.
[00:15:48] Dane Thorwaldson: Talk about striking a nerve. That is-- I am so passionate about that, Jennifer, and have been forever. I mean, your, your benefits plan is only as rich as people know it is, right? I mean, if you're not communicating the value, and if you're not giving people what they need when they need it, then, then what's the point?
[00:16:06] Dane Thorwaldson: It's, it's so, so important. Somebody who, who throws out their back and is lying on the floor in July is not gonna remember, "Wasn't there a musculoskeletal vendor that they talked about in October open enrollment?" Like, that, that's not gonna happen. They need it when they need it. Was there a specific moment or turning point in your career that, that made you realize that, that this burnout topic requires an entire book?
[00:16:32] Dane Thorwaldson: I mean, you talked about some of the buzz that you got on LinkedIn and speakers, but was there something in your own career that, that caused you to write this book?
[00:16:41] Jennifer Weinstein: I think it was a lot of different things that ultimately helped me realize that now was the right time to write Benefits Burnout. But I can also share with you how much I've learned over the course of the last 15 years in writing on LinkedIn, not only about benefits, but to, but particularly about my creative endeavors.
[00:16:58] Jennifer Weinstein: So for those who have followed me, they know that I love baking, and I share a lot of my baking posts on LinkedIn. And you might think, what in the world? What, you know, what does, you know, sharing a, a picture of a scone that she baked or a cake that she made or a cookie that she made, why in the world would you share that on LinkedIn?
[00:17:13] Jennifer Weinstein: That's not appropriate for LinkedIn. But actually, when I share my baking endeavors or when I share painting cows, what I'm actually talking about is how important it is to have a life outside of your career. You know, oftentimes, especially for a benefits person, you have so many challenges coming to you on a regular basis, and you're always being looked at as a problem solver.
[00:17:32] Jennifer Weinstein: But sometimes just sitting at your desk trying to solve that problem, that answer to that problem or that solution to that problem never comes to you. And that's why I think it's so important to have a life outside of your benefits career, something that is a creative passion for you, that allows you to have an opportunity to give your brain a break from your daily benefits job.
[00:17:54] Jennifer Weinstein: Every time I have a challenge or a problem or something I need to solve, the answer never comes to me sitting at my desk. But as soon as I step away and I do something creative, that answer inevitably comes to me. And so I've noticed over the years of writing these stories about how important it is to do things outside of your career.
[00:18:11] Jennifer Weinstein: Even though I absolutely love my career, I absolutely, clearly am very passionate about being in benefits, it's also very important to have a life outside of your job. And as I've written this over the years, the number of people who have shared their own personal stories with me about their benefits burnout and what they do outside of their career that helps them manage their stress, I realized We really needed one place to be able to openly talk about this topic and find solutions to the problem, because there's many people that have not taken the opportunity to create a life outside of their job.
[00:18:46] Jennifer Weinstein: You know, for me, early on in my benefits career, I know I, I worked twenty-four/seven, right? Those were, like, the days you didn't realize, like, sleep was important and taking care of yourself was important, and you just knew that, you know, really doing a great job, you were gonna continue to move on in your career.
[00:19:01] Jennifer Weinstein: But as you get older and you move on in your career, you realize just how important it is to take care of yourself first, so that you can show up and take care of others better.
[00:19:11] Dane Thorwaldson: What an important charge, because that, that is ultimately, at the end of the day, that's what we're doing, right? We're taking care of others.
[00:19:18] Dane Thorwaldson: But the oxygen mask metaphor is, is, is spot on, Jennifer. I, I totally agree. And, and I remember in my early benefits careers when I'm in my early twenties and we order pizza to the office at ten PM because it's open enrollment season, and we're stapling booklets and, and printing things out and binding them.
[00:19:37] Dane Thorwaldson: I mean, those were some of my favorite times of my career at the time. And looking back with nostalgia, that's great. But I think having something outside of that is, is so, so important. And if I was asked to do that today, the answer would be a big no. So, so things shift and things evolve. We hear a lot about there's, there's quiet quitting, which shows up as reduced output.
[00:20:01] Dane Thorwaldson: Now there's quiet cracking, which shows up as just unhappiness in the job. And then we have burnout that shows up most of the time as, as exhaustion. So are, are there any early warning signs for burnout that, that someone should be on the lookout for before it really just gets too far?
[00:20:21] Jennifer Weinstein: Well, it's funny that you ask that question because I actually wrote an article on LinkedIn at one point called "Why I'm Not Quiet Quitting," so maybe we can get back to that too.
[00:20:29] Jennifer Weinstein: But this is what is so scary to me in the benefits profession, is that the signs are not there And I am by no means a medical expert when it comes to looking at the science of burnout. This is just my personal opinion. But I know for many, and in the conversations that I've had, especially since the book was published this summer, the stories that people have told me is really suffering in silence.
[00:20:52] Jennifer Weinstein: I think benefits people, in many ways, are great actors. They put on a good front. They put on a good face. They're showing up for everyone else. And so oftentimes, many people are not checking in on the benefits person, right? The benefits person is checking in on everyone else, but who's checking in on the benefits person to make sure they're okay?
[00:21:11] Jennifer Weinstein: And when you are a caregiver, right, I think of benefits people as caregivers, it's that caregiver fatigue syndrome. That caregiver is there to make sure that they're taking care of everyone, but oftentimes they put themselves on the back burner, and they're not taking care of themselves. And oftentimes that goes very unnoticed, and you're suffering in silence.
[00:21:31] Jennifer Weinstein: For those of you who might be listening or watching this who are thinking, "I am suffering in silence," you know what some of those symptoms might first look like. You might not show up well in a meeting. Maybe you were very talkative before, and now you're maybe one of the last people to talk in that meeting.
[00:21:48] Jennifer Weinstein: Or maybe you only say, you know, one answer or all of a sudden people notice, "Well, hey, they're, they're not talking up as much. They're not leaning in. They're not sharing." Maybe you're not putting in as many hours as you used to. Now, now, ma- that might be a great thing, but you're may- maybe you're just not as committed as you once were to your job, and you're trying to figure out ways that you can create this life outside of your job to help combat some of this burnout.
[00:22:15] Jennifer Weinstein: And I think also for benefits people, so many are really enthralled and passionate about all the different aspects of their job, and maybe now you find yourself just focusing on what needs to get done, and you've lost your zest for finding the new, innovative, creative endeavors that you once enjoyed.
[00:22:33] Dane Thorwaldson: Wow. That is, that is very well said. It's a very personal thing, for sure. And so I think if everyone's on the, on the lookout for those, I think another very important piece is if you're listening today, please send a note to your benefits person and check in with them, and say, "Thank you for everything that you do that I don't even see."
[00:22:53] Dane Thorwaldson: That's your homework today. If you're listening, please reach out to your benefits people. I would love to circle back, Jennifer, to talk a little bit about the, your recent post when it comes to quiet quitting. So you said, "Why I'm not quiet quitting," that was the, the title?
[00:23:08] Jennifer Weinstein: That was the title. When that was very popular, I thought, I, I, I don't feel this way, and I had to take a minute to understand why.
[00:23:16] Jennifer Weinstein: It was beyond just being passionate about my career and benefits, and for me, it really went back to my purpose. What I'm about to say might sound a little woo-woo to people, but I truly believe it. For me, there is no accident that I got into this benefits role. I feel I was very much put into this career for a purpose, and that purpose is to be of help and service to others.
[00:23:39] Jennifer Weinstein: You know, oftentimes, especially you get to a point in your life and you wonder, "What is my purpose here," right? Everybody talks about that. There's thousands of books on that topic. People are wondering what they're doing here in life, and sometimes they're wondering did they pick the right career? Are they on the right path?
[00:23:55] Jennifer Weinstein: And if that is you listening to this, I think for many of us, we forget that- One of the simplest things we can think about for our purpose is the fact that we're here to help others. And, and for me, that is why we are here. We are here to help other people. And for me, as a benefits person, I get the amazing opportunity to help people every day through what I do in a job.
[00:24:18] Jennifer Weinstein: You know, if you think about other jobs within a company, they don't necessarily have the amazing ability that a benefits person does to help somebody else. A benefits person helps people through their benefits strategy. You know, I often say people may forget what they were paid at a job, but if they had a crisis during the time they worked for an employer, and they were helped by their benefits person through the benefits strategy or the benefit offerings that that company offered at the time, that person will never forget that because it was so impactful to them at a time when they needed it most in their life.
[00:24:54] Jennifer Weinstein: I, I'll share just a quick story. I had a conversation last week with someone who's leaving the organization, moving on to a new role, and she was sharing with me a story about a situation I helped her with three years ago. I remember helping her. It never occurred to me she would remember that conversation, but she did.
[00:25:13] Jennifer Weinstein: And oftentimes, I think benefits people don't realize the impact that they have on others, right? She remembered how I helped her at that time in her life when she needed it, and it was through our benefits program, through the benefits strategy that I had a hand in creating. That's amazing, right? And so I think for people who are really struggling right now in this industry, in this career, if on those days you can think back to what your true purpose is, which is helping others, that's what I wrote about in the article about why I wasn't quiet quitting, because I remember my purpose.
[00:25:46] Jennifer Weinstein: Some days it's hard, right? Everybody goes through hard days, difficult days, that frustrating person that you get off of a call with that just grates on your nerves. But if you can remember what your overall purpose is, right, those conversations that are frustrating, they're, they're gonna be forgotten in a week.
[00:26:05] Jennifer Weinstein: But how you go about helping people You have a purpose of being here, and the impact that you have on others, I think most benefits people may not even realize.
[00:26:16] Dane Thorwaldson: It's funny that you bring that up. Just about three weeks ago, Jennifer, my cell phone rang, and it was an unknown number, and I answered the phone, and it was an employee of a company where I led benefits years ago, probably four or five years ago.
[00:26:32] Dane Thorwaldson: And I won't rat anybody out, but the retirement record keeper still had my phone number on their website. And so this person called, and I answered. I said, "This is Dane." And he said, "Dane? Dane from benefits?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Wow, when my company was acquired, you were so integral in getting us on board with the benefits, and I still remember all of that."
[00:26:53] Dane Thorwaldson: And so you're absolutely right. This was way out of left field, and years later, and it just feels so good to remember that is what we're doing, and that's, that's why we're here. I think that's really important. And, and I imagine that that probably leads into my next question, because I want to get to the, the subtitle of your book, which is Falling Back in Love with the Work.
[00:27:16] Dane Thorwaldson: What, what does that process look like? Is it, is it just a mindset shift? Is it a reminder? Are there habits that they can build? What, what does that look like?
[00:27:25] Jennifer Weinstein: Well, this answer might be surprising, and I, I do wanna address the people who are really challenged with this question right now. Can I fall back in love with my career?
[00:27:35] Jennifer Weinstein: You know, what I write about in the book is that there's multiple different ways to go about doing this, but I also address the people who might be sitting in a job right now and, and have the pressures of a terrible boss, right? I know very much back in my career, I've had these experiences, and if that's you, I have to say, sometimes that's never gonna change, and it's gonna be impossible for you to fall back in love with your career if you have the pressure of a boss that it just makes it unbearable for you to work with every day, right?
[00:28:09] Jennifer Weinstein: So you've got to figure that out for yourself. Is that relationship going to change? Can you make it better? If not, it may be time to move on You also have people listening to this who might think, "I can't fall back in love with working on the employer side. I don't want these pressures anymore. I don't want to go through another open enrollment."
[00:28:27] Jennifer Weinstein: For those thinking that that might be them, you might want to think about different parts of the benefits ecosystem. Maybe you try the consulting broker side. Maybe you try the point solution side. Maybe there's a vendor that you've worked with over the years that you are very passionate about. They may have a role for you to move to that point solution, and be a spokesperson at that company, and see what it's like in that side of the world.
[00:28:51] Jennifer Weinstein: And then there's people who really have fallen out of love with the benefits space, and sometimes they're just looking for someone to say, "It's okay. You can move on," right? So if that's that person listening to this, I'll, I'll be that person for you to say, "It's okay. You can move on." But for those who take a moment to realize how impactful they have been to others, like in the conversation we were just having, and really want to get those feelings back that they once did earlier on in their career, there's multiple different ways to go about doing that.
[00:29:23] Jennifer Weinstein: I- I'll just share a couple. One way is to really focus on having that life outside of your job, and I think that is still so important, like we talked about earlier, to have passions, things that you do. Some people say to me, "I don't have passions, Jennifer. I don't like baking. I don't like cow painting. I- I'm not creative."
[00:29:40] Jennifer Weinstein: That's okay. Just going for a walk, listening to music, trying something new. You, you try it, and you don't like it, you don't have to keep doing it, but getting out of your routine also gives you a fresh perspective on what your every day is like. I think also what's interesting is I go back to what I really enjoyed early on in my benefits career.
[00:30:03] Jennifer Weinstein: I remember in that very first benefits job, I went to a conference, and I was listening to a speaker. I am still friends with him today. Listening to a speaker talk about the amazing world of well-being. It sounds funny now because it's very cliché, and we all know what that means, but at this time it was just all new, and it was so exciting, and it felt like, "Yes, I want to be part of this."
[00:30:26] Jennifer Weinstein: That's what made me also fall in love with the world of benefits, because everything was new. There was something new to learn every day. There was something, a new endeavor to jump into. There are so many different aspects of benefits that we often forget. So my other recommendation is that maybe you think of something new that gets you excited.
[00:30:48] Jennifer Weinstein: Maybe it's joining a peer group, maybe it's learning a new area of benefits that you're not an expert in. Maybe you're great on the health and welfare side, but retirement is not an area that you've been involved with before, and you think you wouldn't like it. You don't know until you try it. Maybe you want to get a cer-certification in something in the world of benefits, but trying something new and different kind of reinvigorates you in your career as well.
[00:31:12] Dane Thorwaldson: I think that's so important. And there are, there are different pathways. You called it an ecosystem when it comes to benefits, and you're absolutely right. I have lived that myself, actually. So I spent most of my career on the consulting side and then sat on the employer side. And then the example you gave about being very passionate about a company that you've worked with in the past, that's exactly what happened with me.
[00:31:34] Dane Thorwaldson: And so when an opportunity with Collective Health came on board, I, I jumped at it. So there are, there are different worlds that you could live in, even, even within this benefits ecosystem. You talked about well-being as well, and it, it has been wonderful to watch that evolution, hasn't it? It was, you know, a wellness program, which basically was just a step challenge or something like that, and then having wellness kind of evolve into well-being and, and the, the holistic person and recognizing that the whole person comes to work every day, and you can't leave your worries about taking care of your aging parents behind when you show up to work.
[00:32:12] Dane Thorwaldson: That comes with you. You can't leave your student loan debts that, that are really weighing on you. You can't leave that behind you, bring that with you to work. And so I'm glad we have people like you, Jennifer, in the benefits world that, that understand that and are so driven by the passion to help that whole person.
[00:32:28] Dane Thorwaldson: So you can feel disconnected from, from the why that you're talking about. We're, we're helping people, and I do think that's beautiful. If, if somebody is having trouble reconnecting with that why, is there anything that you might recommend if they're like, "All right, cognitively, I know I'm helping people, but I'm still feeling a little disconnected"?
[00:32:51] Jennifer Weinstein: I think connecting with other benefits people. I think benefits people are unlike anybody else, right? If you've ever been to a benefits conference, or you're in a benefits peer group, or you have friends that do your job at other employers, or even you think about your own benefits team. I mean, some of my closest friends are the benefits people that I've worked with at companies over the course of my career, right?
[00:33:10] Jennifer Weinstein: Like, there is something unique and innate in a benefits person. It's a certain type of personality, and oftentimes when you become burdened with so much on your plate and heads are down, you lose those connections with other people. So I think one of the maybe easiest things to do is to connect with other benefits people, right?
[00:33:29] Jennifer Weinstein: To have a vent session and have people resonate with what you're talking about. They're gonna get it like no one else can, right? You can go and complain to your family, your friends outside of the benefits space, even to other HR people truly don't fully understand your world because they're not living it every day And to have that vent session with other benefit peers is very helpful.
[00:33:52] Jennifer Weinstein: You know, it also reminds me, too, I often write about this on LinkedIn, is when I talk about my baking. You know, have you ever, have you ever had somebody bake you something and like, like, say it's a cake or a cookie or something, and you're like, "Wow, this is excellent." Like, "I want to make this at home." And you're like, "Can I have the recipe?"
[00:34:08] Jennifer Weinstein: And they're like, "No." Like- ... "Oh, no, that was, like, my great aunt's." Like, "I'm not-- I can't share that recipe." I always say benefits people are not like that. Benefits people want to share their recipes for success with you. And so oftentimes benefits people think they have to figure out all out on their own.
[00:34:24] Jennifer Weinstein: They, you know, they're gonna implement this new product. They're gonna implement this new plan. They're gonna change this plan design. They're gonna do something different within their benefits strategy. They're gonna create new communications, and they're, like, inventing the wheel. But many other people have invented the wheel before you, and you don't have to figure it all out on your own.
[00:34:42] Jennifer Weinstein: You can call other people and ask them their recipe for success. And you know what? They will share it with you because benefits people love telling their stories. They love sharing how they implemented something. They love sharing with you all about the vendor that they worked with, what went well, what went wrong, what they would have done differently.
[00:35:02] Jennifer Weinstein: So oftentimes we get so bogged down with thinking we have to know it all, right? We don't reach out for help. Reaching out for help and letting somebody help you, especially people who have been in the benefits world for a while, we love to be mentors to especially younger people in the benefits space who are coming up just trying to figure all of this out.
[00:35:23] Jennifer Weinstein: We love teaching. We love helping people. We love mentoring. We love sharing our stories and giving unsolicited feedback. So I would say also reaching out to people in the benefits space is a big help.
[00:35:35] Dane Thorwaldson: This is such an important conversation, and you're absolutely right. People are so generous with, with their strategies, with their coping mechanisms, with their stories.
[00:35:45] Dane Thorwaldson: I, I know that because every, every conference that you ever go to, there might be a really great keynote speaker, don't get me wrong, or a really compelling, you know, panel that you see from the stage. But almost invariably, the highest rated pieces of these conferences are roundtables, where they're talking to other benefits people, and they're saying, "Wait, how did you do that?
[00:36:08] Dane Thorwaldson: Oh, you did this? That sounds really neat." And it's amazing to see that come to life. And so I, I love that advice to, don't wait for the next conference, but reach out to somebody now, and there's so many great thinkers in the space. So really, really good advice. You said you've always wanted to write a book.
[00:36:27] Dane Thorwaldson: Jennifer, when, when you realized that, "Hey, we- I've struck a nerve here. I've got all these people coming and talking to me after I speak or commenting on my LinkedIn post." When you decided to write a book, what's step one? What do you do when you, when you decide to write a book? What does that look like?
[00:36:45] Jennifer Weinstein: I had to figure all of this out on my own, and so what did I do?
[00:36:48] Jennifer Weinstein: I took my own advice that I just said, and I reached out to other people who had written books before me, because they had already figured it out. And so I reached out to probably 10 people who had written a book, and each one of them had a different story. Some of them used editors, some of them used publishers, some of them self-published.
[00:37:05] Jennifer Weinstein: And I really learned a lot from their, you know, unique experiences. For me, I ended up doing something that I wanted to do on my own. I even like being kind of creative in the digital space, and so I liked creating my own cover to the book. I liked the idea of self-publishing, and I wanted to have some control over that functionality.
[00:37:26] Jennifer Weinstein: And I also really like learning new things, and so I was really excited about the challenge of trying to figure out this whole world of self-publishing and what that would look like. And then you also think about the advertising, right, then that goes into it, the becoming your own public relations person.
[00:37:44] Jennifer Weinstein: I think for anybody who's thinking about writing a book, what I can share is bringing people along for the journey. You know, I had told people along the way that I was writing this book, and so for many who had followed me, they knew this book was coming out. I know one of the things that people had shared with me who had written a book, who did not have that following on LinkedIn, it was very challenging for them to write a book and publish it.
[00:38:05] Jennifer Weinstein: They didn't have a lot of traction because no one knew who they were. And so for me, I've had this amazing journey of connecting with so many people on LinkedIn over the last 15 years, and knowing so many of them, maybe never have met them in person, but we know each other online, and sharing the process of making this book.
[00:38:25] Jennifer Weinstein: And so I think that was really helpful as well, so that when it finally was launched, many people knew what it was about, knew why I was writing it, and so many had reached out to share their stories with me, that it resonated with so many people.
[00:38:39] Dane Thorwaldson: I don't know about you, but bringing people along with the journey, at least for me, would create a lot of accountability, too.
[00:38:45] Dane Thorwaldson: Yes. I said, "Well, I told everybody I'm gonna do this thing. I better do this thing." So- That's true ... that's, that's really wise. One piece of the book is, talks about, you quote, "Passion for your work." Is that, is that a conventional idea to... Are you pushing back on the, the passion for your work concept?
[00:39:05] Jennifer Weinstein: You know, I think it's a very individual choice.
[00:39:07] Jennifer Weinstein: I'm not sure everyone is going to as- be as passionate about benefits as I am. But I think you do have to have some level of passion for what you do. You know, we spend more of our time working than we do in any other part of our life, right? And if you don't have something within your career that you really love doing, that gets you excited to wake up every morning, your day-to-day is gonna be probably pretty miserable You're gonna be struggling, and those difficult conversations you have with people, the, the coworker who gets on your nerves, right?
[00:39:39] Jennifer Weinstein: The difficult boss that we talked about before. All of that's just gonna compound day to day because you're not really enjoying the work that you're doing. So you may not need to have as much passion about benefits as I do. But I think for many who are in this industry, in this career, whether it's on the consultant or broker side, the employer side, the point solution side, going back to maybe purpose is a better word than passion, it's really important to understand what you're doing.
[00:40:07] Jennifer Weinstein: What, what is behind the work that you're doing? If you're selling to an employer benefits person like me, are you just selling that product? Are you selling a lifestyle? Are you selling a story? Are you selling something that can truly help someone, right? Because that really comes across in the conversations you have with people.
[00:40:26] Jennifer Weinstein: Someone can tell if you're just selling them something, and someone can tell if you truly believe and are passionate and feel the purpose behind what you're supporting and selling.
[00:40:36] Dane Thorwaldson: That's so true. I, I think replacing purpose, putting purpose in there for passion, it, it makes a lot of sense. And if you have a sticky note above your monitor that says, "I'm helping people," who knows?
[00:40:50] Dane Thorwaldson: That could work. I mean, I have to remind myself of that a lot. When I lead a team, there's gonna be some tough days, but I remind people the mission of this company is to make healthcare better and more accessible for everyone in the US, and that's a powerful mission. But it's easy to forget when you're drowning in spreadsheets or reports or performance evaluations.
[00:41:11] Dane Thorwaldson: So that's a really powerful concept, the, the purpose.
[00:41:14] Jennifer Weinstein: I think also sometimes we forget benefits can actually be fun. I feel like somewhere over the course of time we have forgotten the fun aspect of the world of benefits, right? It doesn't have to be all dry. It doesn't have to be so serious all the time.
[00:41:30] Jennifer Weinstein: Of course, what we do is serious because we're helping other people. But you can actually have a lot of fun in this space, too, right? If you're a creative person, you can make your communications creative. You can have fun with your team. You can have fun with your coworkers. You can joke around and have some exciting days.
[00:41:48] Jennifer Weinstein: It does not all need to be so serious all the time
[00:41:52] Dane Thorwaldson: Thank you for saying that. One of my favorite open enrollment meetings I went to as a consultant, my client's benefits team had made T-shirts that said, "Friends with benefits." And I thought that was pretty great because, yeah, we, we deal with enough s- hard stuff.
[00:42:07] Dane Thorwaldson: It should be fun sometimes.
[00:42:09] Jennifer Weinstein: And so you remember that.
[00:42:10] Dane Thorwaldson: I remember it.
[00:42:11] Jennifer Weinstein: People remember the fun stuff.
[00:42:13] Dane Thorwaldson: That's right.
[00:42:14] Jennifer Weinstein: I think that's wonderful. They don't remember the seventy-five page PowerPoint slide deck.
[00:42:18] Dane Thorwaldson: No, they definitely don't. You've given already so much good practical advice. You talk about maybe explore something different in the benefits ecosystem, you know, reach out to your peer groups, join a professional network or, or something like that.
[00:42:35] Dane Thorwaldson: But what's the difference, and can you tell the difference between a rough patch that's gonna get a little brighter versus, all right, this is real burnout, I really need to take some, some definitive action? Is there a way to tell the difference?
[00:42:50] Jennifer Weinstein: It, it is so challenging, and again, this is just my personal opinion, but, you know, oftentimes I'll say to my team, we're having a difficult time, right?
[00:43:01] Jennifer Weinstein: Somebody just got off a call, something went wrong, something didn't go as we had planned, and we talk about, okay, is this a point in time or is this a lifetime event, right? And ninety-nine percent of the time it's a point in time. It's not a lifetime event, right? So I think keeping things in perspective.
[00:43:21] Jennifer Weinstein: We all go through periods of our career, I'm sure most of us, right? Ninety-nine percent of us go through periods of our career where we're feeling burnout, we're down, we're frustrated, we're questioning things. But when that continues to go on for a period of time, and you don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, and you're getting to that one more open enrollment where you don't know how you're gonna do it again this year, you have that one more conversation where you're feeling very frustrated, where you feel like you're continuing to suffer in silence.
[00:43:51] Jennifer Weinstein: You've tried the things, you're taking the action, you're having the life outside of the job, but still nothing continues to get better. I think at some point you have to make a decision. Do you want to continue to suffer in silence, or is it really time to make a change? And that is so difficult for people, especially who have been in the benefits world a while, because thinking about that change, is it moving to another employer?
[00:44:17] Jennifer Weinstein: Is it moving somewhere else in the ecosystem? Is it trying something new? Right? You get to a point in your career where trying something new could be potentially very scary But I think for each person, it's an individual decision about how much time they want to give to see if something's going to improve.
[00:44:35] Jennifer Weinstein: But I can tell you, no one's gonna come for you, right? No one's going to make it better for you. Your boss is not gonna make it better for you. Your team's not gonna make it better for you. Your family's probably not gonna make it better for you. You have an individual choice to make whether or not you can see it getting better or if you need to take action and make a change.
[00:44:55] Dane Thorwaldson: I love that you can take a topic like employee burnout and leave with such an empowering message because that, that's absolutely the truth, Jennifer. I mean, there, there's nobody that's gonna swoop in. And even though there isn't someone that's going to swoop in and save you, Jennifer, let's say there are benefits leaders who are listening to this right now and, and they're starting to notice potential signs of burnout in their team members that report to them.
[00:45:25] Dane Thorwaldson: Now, while they can't change it for them, while they can't fix it, are there any things that, that they could potentially do and apply in, in real world that, that might help or alleviate?
[00:45:36] Jennifer Weinstein: Well, the first thing that they should be doing is making sure that they're doing their own advice . Right? The worst thing is you have a benefits leader who is telling the team, "Oh, take the time off.
[00:45:48] Jennifer Weinstein: Oh, take care of yourself. Oh, do all of these things," but the leader themselves is not putting that into practice. And a team that's not seeing their leader put into practice often makes them feel like they cannot take care of themselves either, that they can't take that time to put themselves first. I often say the leader, right, is like the conductor of the orchestra.
[00:46:06] Jennifer Weinstein: I, I think sometimes, you know, in my past about flying, I went through a period of time where I was not a fan of turbulence. Let's put it that way. And so I would look to the flight attendant to see if, if they were calm, and if the flight attendant was calm, I would be calm, right? Because there's nothing to be concerned about.
[00:46:24] Jennifer Weinstein: Often for benefit leaders that are leading teams, that team is looking to you during hard times to see are they calm? If they're calm, that team is probably gonna continue to remain calm as well. But teams are looking to you to lead by example. I think also as leaders, one of the easiest things we can do, especially in one-on-one conversations, is to ask people, "How can I be showing up for you better?
[00:46:48] Jennifer Weinstein: Is there anything I can be doing better in my job?" And really having an open and honest conversation. If you can get to a point with your team where they trust you, that's amazing, right? Because then people are gonna be more vulnerable. If you can be vulnerable with your team and share your own frustrations and concerns, I think people will be more open and honest with you as well.
[00:47:07] Jennifer Weinstein: But asking people how you can help them, what you can take off of their plate, how you can be showing up better and differently to make their world a little bit easier may not change everything, but I think people appreciate that.
[00:47:20] Dane Thorwaldson: I think that's good, good practical advice, for sure. And, and if we're here serving people, which I think is the purpose for most of us in this world in, in benefits, then, then that level of humility should be accessible to be able to have that conversation and, and then to be open to, to what you hear, to what exactly what you hear.
[00:47:41] Dane Thorwaldson: I had a boss at another job who led by example in exactly the way that, that you described Jennifer, was he was talking about his PTO, and this was a numbers guy. And so he was, he was making sure that we felt free to take PTO. It was one of those unlimited PTO companies, and he said, "Here's what I'm doing."
[00:48:01] Dane Thorwaldson: And he made a PowerPoint. I'm not kidding you. He made a PowerPoint which showed all of the different trips he was taking throughout the year. He showed, you know, "I'm taking 4.3 days per month of PTO. I'm-- it's, you know, it's four weeks in between trips." And, and, like, he had all these stats to, to... And it was funny and nerdy, but it really set that tone and set that example to say, "Okay, well, I guess I could take off a day to go to a wedding, so that's totally fine."
[00:48:31] Dane Thorwaldson: So I, I think that's great advice. Okay. Well, we've got to wrap up here, I think. But before we do, what do you hope somebody closes the last page of Benefits Burnout? How do you want them to, to s- take their next step in the world? What's something that you want to really leave them with?
[00:48:51] Jennifer Weinstein: My hope in writing this book is that this would open up a public conversation on a very private topic And I think one of the best things, if you close that book, is to go and tell other people, obviously, about the book, but to share your thoughts and feelings with others.
[00:49:06] Jennifer Weinstein: The best thing a benefits person can do is talk to another benefits person and make them feel seen, make them feel that they are not alone. 'Cause suffering in silence, it's a horrible feeling. And when we're having these open conversations like you and I are, are doing right now, it makes people feel seen, it makes people feel heard, it makes people feel not alone, and that is so impactful to have that kind of impact on another person's life.
[00:49:31] Jennifer Weinstein: So I would say go have these open conversations with your team. Go and have these open and honest conversations with your benefit peers, your boss, and other people that you work with. I think you will find people will be very receptive to this conversation and appreciate you even more.
[00:49:49] Dane Thorwaldson: I think you're absolutely right, Jennifer.
[00:49:51] Dane Thorwaldson: I didn't even get to half of the questions that swirled in my head from your first answer, and I would love to swap stories with you about the benefits world over the last couple decades, and we could do that all day. But I will let you go, Jennifer. This has been such a wonderful conversation. So we have been talking about benefits burnout, how to fall back in love with your employee benefits career.
[00:50:16] Dane Thorwaldson: So Jennifer, where can we find this book, and how can we get more involved?
[00:50:20] Jennifer Weinstein: It is on Amazon, both in e-book and also in soft copy.
[00:50:26] Dane Thorwaldson: Excellent. And it sounds like it's okay for me to say, please engage with Jennifer on LinkedIn.
[00:50:34] Jennifer Weinstein: 100%. That is one of my most favorite things to do, is to meet new people on LinkedIn and engage and hear your stories, and would love to have more people follow along with me and this conversation.
[00:50:46] Dane Thorwaldson: Thank you so much, Jennifer. Have a wonderful day.
[00:50:49] Jennifer Weinstein: Thank you, Dane.
[00:50:51] Dane Thorwaldson: If you're enjoying the Benefits Playbook, we would love your support. Please take a moment to rate and review the show wherever you listen. It really helps others discover us and join the conversation. And while you're there, don't forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.
[00:51:06] Dane Thorwaldson: If you know a colleague or a friend who'd enjoy the conversation, share it with them, too. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next time.
[00:51:15] Producer: This podcast is brought to you by Collective Health. In health benefits, conventional wisdom says you have to choose better care or lower costs. We give you both.
[00:51:26] Producer: As the leading independent TPA with over 800,000 members and counting, we unify plan administration, cost management, and a member experience your employees will actually love all in one place. If you're an HR leader or consultant ready for a more transparent benefits strategy, get in touch at collectivehealth.com/playbook.